Thursday, December 8, 2016


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(Recorded: 10/22/2016) (Published: 12/6/2017)

Randy talks to Jim about gravitoelectromagnetism. Based on the similarity between Newtonian gravity and electrostatics, there should be a second gravitational field,the gravitomagnetic field. What are the implications of the existence of such a field, and how large are those effects?

1. The books referred to in this podcast:

(A) Mirror Matter by Robert Forward, a book about antimatter.
(B) Collective Electrodynamics by Carver Mead, a book arguing for the primacy of the vector potential in electromagnetism.
(C) Quantum Paradoxes by Aharonov and Rohrlich, which uses the pseudo-paradoxes of quantum physics to explore the meaning of the quantum world. In it, it discusses the Aharonov-Bohm effect.

2. Physics Frontiers episodes related to this one:

The previous episode we referred to:
(A) Physics Frontiers 1: The Gravitational 4-Vector of Carver Mead

An episode where we discuss the papers by Robert Forward we referred to here:
(B) Physics Frontiers 6: General Relativity for the Experimentalist
(C) Physics Frontiers 25: Graviational Field Propulsion

Other related episodes:
(D) Physics Frontiers 12: A Gravitational Arrow of Time
(E) Physics Frontiers 31: The Parameterized Post-Newtonian Framework

3. The Quantum Paradoxes episode referred to in this episode was Quantum Paradoxes 4: Phases and Gauges, about the Aharonov-Bohm effect.

4. Our subreddit

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Transcript (Rough Draft; added 2020/07/06)
07:16:42 Alright, well this week on physics frontiers, we will be talking about Vito electromagnetism, which is kind of an exotic sub topic that people rarely get into when they talk about general relativity. 07:16:55 You might have heard of it as frame dragging, or the lens during effect. But it was a prediction that was made by General Relativity, which is only recently been tested. 07:17:06 was this prediction made by General Relativity, or was it something that people were looking at before general relativity. 07:17:13 Well, the idea, at least in its general contours was originally discovered by all of our heavy side who wrote the equations for grip Vito electromagnetism. 07:17:25 Back in 1893. 07:17:27 And I believe that his equations where the week field approximation that the predicted the, the effects in their general qualitative character, but later on when Einstein developed general relativity, his cancer is cancer calculus equations yielded the 07:18:00 at them. But, I suppose, in the most general sense groovy to electromagnetism, is a parallel to electromagnetism, where it's no more complicated than this, instead of dealing with moving electrical charges like we do with electromagnetism. 07:18:20 We're dealing with moving mass charges, where you look at the magnitude of the mass as a form of charge, and you can get the same forms of induction. In the same, same type of fields that resemble the shape of a magnetic field, but instead of acting on 07:18:39 electrical charges they act on matter charges. 07:18:42 Okay now I think it's important, if for anybody who might not know this, that people understand that mass does act like a charge at least classically does act like a charge it has two aspects, the charge aspect, the gravitational charge, and it also has 07:19:00 the inertia aspects, the resistance to acceleration. 07:19:04 So those two things happened to coincide. And it's a major point in general relativity, that these are the same sort of thing. So as soon as you write down Maxwell's equations, and you have these four equations, Two of them are directly applicable to 07:19:20 gravity, do anything with gravity, that's more complicated than two point charges attract each other, you're probably going to be using Dallas's law. Okay. 07:19:30 And the other electrical equation is Faraday's law, the difference in the way you look at it is the 13th law without the magnetic field with even a constant magnetic field is is just saying that there are no vector, sources, 13th law is saying there are 07:19:46 no vector sources to be electrostatic field, just like Dallas's laws saying there are point sources to the electrostatic people, and until you have a second field that magnetic field. 07:19:58 There's no way to get a vector source into the electric field. 07:20:02 The only vector sources for the electric field are changes in the magnetic field. 07:20:07 So you start off on day one, with two equations. 07:20:12 Galaxies law and fair day's law that basically are exactly the same for gravitational field and and and electrostatic field. Okay. The other two Maxwell's equations, say just the opposite for the magnetic field, let's just say it that way, and peers law 07:20:27 which says that if you have an electric current. That creates a magnetic field. Right. 07:20:33 And then there's one more. That doesn't really have a name, and basically says there are no magnetic monopoles. 07:20:41 Or another way to say that is there are no magnetic point sources, and they apply to to compete electromagnetism as well, I would imagine because there's no such thing as a group Vito magnetic monopole. 07:20:53 Yeah, so as soon as you have Maxwell's equations, and you already have, you know, Newton's law universal gravitation and the, all that stuff, you look at these and you say, Okay, well, I've got these two things that already. 07:21:07 Apply shouldn't these other to apply somehow to, can I construct that second field. Now, whether or not you have a second field is really an experimental question. 07:21:17 That's a question for the world, not a question for the theory, but somebody like Oliver heavy side who was really great mathematician and physicist who was very well known as functions and theories and all sorts of things named after him would look at 07:21:32 that parallel and say, Is there something more I can do with it. 07:21:36 Right, because anybody that looks at physics can see that the basic equation for the interaction of two charges is identical and form to the interaction of two gravitational masses. 07:21:51 And that really gets your head going because, although the, the equations are the same form. 07:21:57 There is a difference in the sign interaction with, with the gravitational charge, or I guess you could call it a mass charge likes attract and dislikes repel, but in electricity it's just the opposite. 07:22:11 But other than that, other than that sign in the front. The form is identical. And so, I like the fact that he was thinking, well ahead of, I guess the rest of the rest of the physics community in the 19th century and started exploring this idea of well, 07:22:30 If it. If it behaves like if it looks like an electrical phenomenon, then maybe it will also have these induction style effects and that's where the idea of thinker Vito magnetism was originally born in something I was wondering, was, you understand the 07:22:49 relativistic connection between the electrical magnetic fields right. Sure. What happens in special relativity is that if you have, say two things moving, and you're just watching them. 07:23:03 Then, To understand how they interact with each other. 07:23:07 You have to consider one is a source of the interaction and one of the object of the interaction. Now, you know, you know, Newton's third law is going to have both of them react to each other, right but when you're looking at things it's easiest to look 07:23:20 at one as a source and look at the other one. As the sort of affected object. 07:23:26 Right, you could pick pick either one, and then say that it's a rest, and then apply to Lawrence Transform to the velocity of the other body right. What you have to do to compute the interaction, would be to transform into one frame then transform into 07:23:42 other and so forth. So, probably the simplest thing you can do with it, say a magnetic interaction is to look at how a point particle moving charged particle interact with a wire, right. 07:23:58 You made a current in a wire. 07:24:01 Current in a wire, so you have a current in a wire and going, you know, a little bit off the wire but going a little too It is a charged particle and figure out how that charged particle is going to react if you don't want to use magnetism. 07:24:22 You just want to look at how the charges are doing these things, but you have to do is you have to transform into the frame where the current is right, so that there is no current Right. 07:24:37 What that's going to do, even if you have with the current a neutral wire. If you transform into the frame where the current is not running two wires no longer neutral. 07:24:50 And so now you have this charged wire, you just have this charge wire with no current running through it. 07:24:57 And you calculate the electromagnet or you calculate the electrostatic field from the charge wire, but that's not really what the particle feels right so what you have to do is you calculate the electric field in the wires frame. 07:25:12 But to apply a force you have to be in the same frame as the particle. Right. The thing that's actually being moved around pushed around. So then you have to transform the field into the particles frame of reference. 07:25:26 Right. And then you apply the field, see which way the force is going to go and all that other stuff. And then what you have to do is you have to transform everything back into your own reference range. 07:25:37 Right. 07:25:38 So it's a it's a fairly tedious process to do something like that because you have to go, Lawrence transform Lawrence transform Lawrence transform do everything right and turns out you have to do two things right every time you do a little bit annoying. 07:25:55 But when you, when you do that entire process, you find that in addition to what you thought was going to be an electric phenomenon. Right, yeah. 07:26:08 You have some additional force. 07:26:10 And that additional force, basically needs to make that additional coursework you basically need to construct this imaginary field that we call the magnetic field. 07:26:22 It's not really imaginary but it's the relativistic effect of electromagnetism, the relativistic effective electricity between these two objects. As you observe them, you know, they have what you know they have all these things moving around Europe in 07:26:38 your reference frame, and that relativistic effect requires you to have some sort of thing that we call the magnetic field. So you're looking you're thinking about this in terms of veto magnetism. 07:26:49 Yeah, so the first thing is is. 07:26:52 Well, the question is, is how does that relate to how this second field and what do they call that second field, set the veto magnetic field. Yes, if you've got a moving, if you gotta move mass current, you've got out you're going to have the magnetic 07:27:05 field. Okay, so this will veto magnetic field. I was wondering if that is derived in the same way or is it usually just assume I would assume that it would be identical because all the physical characteristics are going to go through the same Lorenz transform 07:27:22 right before a mass current coming in your direction you're going to have a Lawrence transform that gives you a compressed sense of a higher density right, just like you'd have a higher charged density for electrons moving in your direction right i mean 07:27:37 that's what I assume no I'm not completely sure about that, because when you have an electric field in a relativistic setting or an electromagnetic field in a relativistic setting the whole thing is just one tensor so they don't separate the two fields 07:27:51 they're one symbol, and now it's a four by matrix basically it's a four by, it's a rank to for tensor, so it's like a four by four matrix tensor. 07:28:02 Oh no wait, the discrepancy factor in the gravitational field is the second order stress. Stress energy tensor, as opposed to the source of the electromagnetic field, which is a first order for current cancer. 07:28:15 resolve that I don't know how he did it, yeah yeah we might have to think about that a little bit. That might be leading me into the next thing which is in a general relativistic interpretation of this, what would happen so if we said, originally, that 07:28:33 we had this field attacking just like the magnetic field in special relativity. 07:28:40 But then we have to move all this stuff into general relativity, which is this, you know, highly nonlinear regime, which is mucking around with this metric tensor and all that other fun stuff. 07:28:51 So that, so that always Lorenz transforms aren't really what's going on anymore you have more complicated transforms is ever more complicated metric, how does that modify how you're looking at what's going on with the veto magnet magnetic field is that 07:29:06 just the fact that now you have to use the stress energy tensor, rather than this, for current that he's talking about the four current being a rank one tensor, where the time element is your charge density, and each one of the three space elements, our 07:29:26 currents. So the three space elements together constitute a vector curve when Carver mead was talking about it g for V. It sounded like he was, he had formulated a solution for group veto electromagnetism, that echoed the electromagnetic field in that 07:29:44 way. But there must be some kind of cross coupling. There must be some kind of interdependence of those vector potentials that doesn't exist in the electromagnetic regime in order to get these non linearity so that's what I'm thinking. 07:29:58 Because the week field approximation for grito magnetism, for example, it completely perfectly reflects Maxwell's equations. But when you get to higher gravitational fields and higher velocities, that it deviates you know in crew with increasing significance 07:30:14 from those predictions so there must be some kind of interdependence of the factors that isn't applicable to electromagnetism right. That is what my sort of naive you could set because I haven't done any real deep thinking about this sort of mathematical 07:30:27 level so that's it's sort of just a naive. Thinking of mine. Yeah, he well he hasn't published his complete set of equations for for that approach, which looks beautiful, but he hasn't published is complete treatment of yet, and I've been thinking maybe 07:30:42 maybe we could take a look at it and see if we could back engineer it based on the talk that he gave, but in the meantime I'm just, I just kind of put that as a placeholder and thinking that. 07:30:53 Okay, so, these effects are real, you can get a good initial ballpark estimate from these equations, but if you start going to relativistic velocities and significant redshift and the gravitational field you probably get a much more intense effect. 07:31:06 Was there anything else you'd like to talk about as far as this stuff in the general relativistic interpretation of electromagnetism. 07:31:14 Well, I think that what we should probably mention that the way that it's usually discussed in qualitative terms trying to give people an appreciation for how it works, is often space time is described as like a syrup. 07:31:31 And when an object like say the Earth is spinning. Then it drags that that space time syrup around with it so that the coordinates get sort of shifted around in gr space time itself becomes twisted in the direction of spin. 07:31:49 There's a hydrodynamic model for it in gr, which is fascinating and kind of surreal to think about space time getting twisted around that way. And especially when you start thinking about binary systems or try nary systems. 07:32:03 I mean the the warping of of the space time metric gets pretty exotic under those conditions, but there is an alternative way now looking at it, where you can can think of spaces space time is always being Euclidean, but there are actual forces acting 07:32:21 on light that will curve its trajectory acting on matter that will influence, its trajectory. 07:32:28 And that's that's what Carver me developed as g4 v so I'm really eager to see that. Get flushed out. 07:32:34 So you're saying that this g4 v thing. 07:32:38 Rather than saying that you have a curve spacetime says, you start with your Euclidean space on and then you do something to the light or something somehow. 07:32:50 How does that translate into this graffiti electromagnetism. 07:32:54 Well, frankly, it's much more in line with our theory of electromagnetism and electromagnetism, we don't think of space and time bending, in order to give us the fields that were talking about. 07:33:06 So I think that we can look at it in a similar way that we can still, I think that the mathematics of special relativity will still apply. Although its interpretation, may change under the g4 v model, because even in special relativity you're talking 07:33:22 about compressed time and compressed space and these kind of ideas that the geometry of space time is changing. But those effects can also be understood in terms of particles, being affected by the influence of potential fields and gradients, and it just 07:33:41 creates the illusion that space and time are compressed, because what we observe with light or moving matter will be following these potentials which create the illusion that there's a change in the metric. 07:33:56 Basically with the g4 v would cover meet is done. I think we talked about this couple of episodes ago is he's introduced a vector potential, so the vector potential is this thing that works with magnetism normally, and it's something that's complicated 07:34:12 to use it's complicated to understand it's something that doesn't show up in your freshman e&m, and it shows up in your junior, senior level and then book just long enough so that you can do it put two problems at the end of the chapter and then you don't 07:34:28 worry about it anymore. You don't use it until you're stuck trying to get for all the second Jackson, as a graduate student, so it's not something that has a lot of very practical application. 07:34:41 You can only choose when you're a graduate student, because it's so important in quantum mechanics. That's really how I see it is that in quantum mechanics, the vector potential is how you couple magnetic fields to your situation. 07:34:56 And it actually comes into the momentum of the Schrodinger equation, but the vector potential is how you couple that magnetism into your equation, you don't do it with a magnetic field right you deal with that potential right it's charges acting in potentials 07:35:10 potentials rather than using an electrical and magnetic field, like I did the substitution right, it's a different way of calculating the the same motions. 07:35:26 The electrical and magnetic fields are sort of really density because it's overcharge a fourth density, right, density of force, whereas the potentials vector potential or the scalar potential, those are sort of like a density, energy, like an energy 07:35:35 gradient right. It's like an energy density, the gradient is what creates the field, and in quantum mechanics you don't use forces, because it's all Hamiltonian formulation and Hamiltonian formulation is completely energy based formulation. 07:35:52 So, you have to use this Becker potential and like in the main podcast we said at one point people didn't think there was a really interesting aspect of this, but it turns out that there is something physical to this vector potential previously people 07:36:06 would just thought that it was a mathematical abstraction of this magnetic field and the magnetic fields, the thing that's doing all the pushing and pulling, and you just abstract this into this vector potential that doesn't have any analog anywhere else 07:36:37 and physical theory which is a very strange thing, and uses abstraction, to get you some numbers, and then you go back to the real world, until you have people like her on up actually creating experiments that can do this sort of thing for thought experiments 07:36:39 that show that there's an actual physical effect of this Becker potential in the real world. 07:36:45 Except it looks to me now. And this is, I think what he was saying in his one of his talks, was that if we could go back now and teach quantum mechanics, and apparently now gravity as well, using the language of scalar and vector potentials and the equations 07:37:04 that we use in quantum mechanics. 07:37:07 Now, at that level that we could do away with the entire electrical magnetic field. The way that we teach it from the classical method right there because those are, I guess the second order derivatives, right. 07:37:22 So, we could sort of relearn the entire way that we look at the universe and and teach it that way and although there will always be a usefulness for electrical and magnetic potentials, we don't need to have them, that we can get the same results using 07:37:38 this. 07:37:39 this, this, the collective electrodynamics formulation that he has in this book, well collective electrodynamics from his book is really just arguing for the premise of the vector potential so electromagnetism, but he's also applying the exact same approach 07:38:02 to gravity and Corvino magnetism, at least as far as teaching is concerned, you're never going to get away from teaching the field, right, the field is analogous to the force and the students won't be ready for the kind of mathematics. 07:38:09 Oh that's true think you need to do to use these, the operators Hamiltonian, well you don't have to worry too much about the operators. When you learn him at Hamiltonian mechanics, you're not really too worried about the operator theory that shows up 07:38:25 when you get into the quantum mechanics, but you can do this just by looking at the differential equations and saying, okay, I set up my problem this way. 07:38:35 And then I take some derivatives and everything's okay and the setting up the problem with the Hamiltonian formulation with conservation of energy, but you need to have. 07:38:44 I shouldn't say take some derivatives because you need to actually solve differential equations with. So it's not a simple way to learn something and it's not, it's not a kinesthetic theory, you don't have any experience in the world of energy. 07:39:00 Unless you're taking the right drugs. 07:39:04 But, you have a experience in the world of forces I'm pushing something, something's pushing me, I'm running into the wall, those sorts of things, that's where your experience lies. 07:39:15 And if you're trying to learn something you have to start with what you already know, you can't just jump into the middle or the end you can't get into the deep end without learning to swim. 07:39:26 Let's move on to them into the realm of some of the effects that we've seen in nature, involving Corvino magnetism, and some of some of the astronomical evidence that we've seen for it so the experiments that have done, we've done in order to confirm 07:39:41 it so that we know that it's real. I remember talking about this the friend A while back, who was studying material science, and he didn't think that it had been confirmed. 07:39:47 He was like what Corvino magnetism that's not just a theory that we've got evidence for that. 07:39:56 So that's, that's news to a lot of people. 07:39:59 I guess for a long time there was an inference from astronomical circles that grew Vito magnetic effects were happening and gravitational waves would explain decaying orbits of binary systems and that kind of thing. 07:40:14 So that's another interesting thing is that with Vito electromagnetism. 07:40:19 We've also got radiation. It's not electromagnetic radiation like light that we're used to, but it's it's a it's analogous to it. And, and it works in a similar way, right, you'd expect something like that No I don't remember exactly how to build gravity 07:40:37 waves, out of general relativity, but you know you'd expect something similar to happen. Although, what we're really saying that general relativity is a quadruple radiation. 07:40:48 That's right. Gravitational waves or quadruple radiation so all of a sudden we're seeing a difference already between what you get with gravity and what you get with electromagnetism, is that major difference. 07:41:00 So, maybe, maybe there's some interesting thing in there that can explain why this is a little bit different. but even so I mean if you had to, if you had to electrical charges that are orbiting each other around a common access, and you were looking 07:41:14 at it at them head on that a 90 degree angle to the axis, then you would you would see electromagnetic radiation field right yeah but it's going to be quadruple radiation of it, the main thing about that is that the radiation is going to drop off at a 07:41:31 much quicker rate, then the dipole radiation. Oh, right. That's true. Yeah. So there's a physical difference right there and that may simply be the fact that you don't have the other charts, right, you just have. 07:41:47 There's only one charge for mass, right, positive. You only have positive charges for message to everyone, you only have positive charge that might be just a bad effect. 07:41:57 I think you were saying something about the size of these effects too, because I was just thinking about it. The, the size difference between your electric and magnetic effects are something like depending on what we're looking at one oversee or one over 07:42:13 c squared, and that usually makes the magnetic effects very, very small. So for a electromagnetic wave, the ratio of the magnitude of the electric field of the magnitude of the magnetic fields that are perpendicular to each other well the way propagates, 07:42:31 that's one oversee. So this is that means that that magnetic field is often. 07:42:39 Well that magnetic field is always very very much smaller than that electric. 07:42:47 So I think there was something in the notes that you sent me. 07:42:51 That was talking about the actual magnitude of the graphical magnetic effect. And do you know anything about exactly how much smaller, it is compared to the gravitational effects that was. 07:43:06 I believe that we were talking about the. There's a G over to C squared term. When you're calculating the magnetic effect. So I think, I think you're talking about it's a second order effect right that's that's sort of what I was thinking would happen. 07:43:23 I'm, but I'm not completely sure. 07:43:25 Right. I think there was a calculation in a Robert forward paper that I was looking at earlier. 07:43:33 Robert forward did a calculation in a wonderful paper from 1961 called general relativity for the experimentalists, where he talks about the magnitude of the gravitational force between two pipes that are that are filled with a moving fluid spinning through 07:43:59 them. 07:44:01 And then they grew Vito magnetic effects. And there was an enormous difference that I think that, as I recall the gravitational effect was some size 10 to the minus fourth and the veto magnetic effect was something like 10 to the minus 16 and and we and 07:44:24 we at that point I maybe was 10 to the minus four times or something really small like that. 07:44:27 But here it is Newton's per meter of pipe. 07:44:30 Ah, yeah. The pinching effect would be right 10 to the minus 15th Newton's per meter of pipe contrasted to the gravitational attraction which would be three times 10 to the minus forth Newton's per meter of pipe. 07:44:47 So you can tell you know it's it's another. 07:44:52 It's like 10 orders of magnitude 11 orders of magnitude smaller. 07:44:58 So you're talking about really small forces, which is why if you wanted to do some engineering with these effects. 07:45:04 And he talks about this little bit later on and that paper and, and the subsequent paper. 07:45:11 You'd need either extremely dense materials degenerate matter or super imposed both Sonic tetra neutrons, or rich are extremely high relativistic velocities are both in order to get anything measurable. 07:45:29 It was either one also that was talking about finding something like an iron with a high. Guess he called a gravitational permeability. 07:45:37 That's right. That was a, he was the, he was a brilliant guy and he mean he would write these papers, he was a he would write fiction he's he, he wrote some fictional science fiction novels. 07:45:48 Well I mean I did tell you how I got into physics right. I don't think you did. Okay, well I mean, basically, I was in the Marine Corps at one point, and I was wandering around virginia beach or someplace, very like it like Newport News or something like 07:46:02 that. And I went into a bookstore and to this little mall bookstore, and there was a book there by Robert forward, called mirror map. 07:46:14 And at that point, I had been under the impression that anti-matter was something that was made up by Gene Roddenberry Hmm, so that he could have a plot point in every other Star Trek episode. 07:46:25 Of course. And so I read the book and I was fascinated by it and ended up going to school and getting three things like that. Rubber for one was actually the reason why I ended up going to school in the first place. 07:46:40 Oh, that's great. He's so sort of a modern like a, like your Isaac Asimov I think Isaac Asimov had a similar effect on people because these are people that have that rare genius to be able to think creatively and dream up and think of new possibilities 07:46:57 but also the scientific acumen, to really discuss them technically and plausibly Robert forward. In addition to writing science fiction books is also got a publishing history that's fascinating he would he did work for military defense contractors. 07:47:17 The paper on one of my favorite papers guidelines to anti gravity. He wrote for Hughes research laboratories. I mean these are heavy hitting scientists, and he was way out there at the bleeding edge, he was, he was thinking about these ideas on how to 07:47:33 experiment in the lab with Vito magnetism. 07:47:38 Long before you heard about it and any other the Academic Press. 07:47:43 And who knows, maybe, maybe some of that research has made advancements and you know it's locked away somewhere, but he who discussed at the end of that paper, the need to research to find materials that would have the same effect that iron has with a 07:48:02 magnetic field so I think there's a very high nonlinear gravitational permeability. And he discusses at one point that with atomic matter. 07:48:14 The magnetic moments, and the inertial moments are coupled. 07:48:18 And he suggests that it may be possible. Therefore, to convert an electromagnetic radiation, a changing electromagnetic field into a changing gravitational field. 07:48:31 So, he was really thinking he was way out there. I think that maybe if you have a really high angular momentum and an atomic nucleus that you might have the capacity to couple to grow Vito magnetic effects more strongly that you talked about that at one 07:48:46 point in the notes it said just had a really high permeability was he looking for something just something with the high permeability like iron has iron has a high Transformers permeability. 07:48:58 What was he looking for something that's actually historic which is another property of parents magnetism, that is to say that it can reverse polarity without you know reversing its orientation in certain directions, and it's in sort of the directions, 07:49:13 between the directions where it can reverse polarity that has that high permeability. 07:49:19 Well he talks about looking, and he describes a procedure to find materials that have an anomalously large or nonlinear properties that can be used to enhance time varying gravitational fields. 07:49:33 And I suppose if you had both like in the case with iron. 07:49:37 Then, then you'd be, you'd be well poised to start exploring that technology, right. 07:49:44 He talks about Let me see intersperse in wedges and material between gravitational wave generators and detectors. 07:49:54 And he does, and he mentions those described by Jay Weber. 07:49:59 And then he says that, then look for a change in the attitude and direction of the propagation of the gravitational radiation so I'm just saying that sounds like a really good candidate, by itself, for an episode of physics frontiers. 07:50:13 That'd be a really difficult subject but I'd love to do it. 07:50:16 We'd have to delve into it. 07:50:19 All right, Jim. Yeah, I wanted to ask you is what was Mira matter that was that talking about anti matter, because he also talks, he also talks about negative, negative mass and exotic matter. 07:50:31 That's some of his other papers, where he explores. You know what would happen if you had a type of material that had an intrinsic repulsive gravitational field, and that's really fun I've read about, I think, because I haven't seen that book for years. 07:50:47 I think that was at least one of the chapters in the book so I mean it was a very interesting book because what he do is he'd illustrate, whatever he was going to talk about by first writing a little story about it so we had some little story about some 07:51:03 guys with their spaceship going somewhere right right. 07:51:08 And each chapter would start with tiny little story about these guys in their spaceship. 07:51:14 And then he talked about the physics for however long so maybe a 10 page story about, you know, something going wrong with the reactor and a 20 page story explaining why that would happen, or something like that. 07:51:32 It's fun. 07:51:33 But I think he did, he did talk about that in one of those chapters, I think that's, that was actually an open question for a long time and it may still be an open question for about anti-matter, it is, they still haven't settled that one although there 07:51:48 are strong theoretical reasons to think that anti-matter has positive gravitational mass. They still haven't been able to perform the sensitive experiments to actually detect which direction anti hydrogen falls, and a gravitational field, that in itself 07:52:04 is an interesting problem. 07:52:07 Well, some of those things are extremely interesting, right, we read papers about people trying to build anti anti hydrogen, Hydrogen or anti anti hydrogen I'm confused. 07:52:18 Yeah, well they're trying to build anti anti hydrogen, which is just hydrogen, right, but they want to figure out how to build in. 07:52:26 And I think probably they have but at one point, it was it was an open thing, you know, how do you take a bunch of protons and a bunch of electrons, and make hydrogen, and they wanted to figure out how to do that because you got lots of protons you've 07:52:40 got lots of electrons running around, and if some of them get loose you don't blow anything up. And so you can just toss a bunch of those things together, and, you know, get your hydrogen, and then modify conditions and reduce the numbers that you, you 07:52:54 actually have and see what's going on and try to figure out how to actually build it, whereas you know with the anti hydrogen lease for a long time, you just had all these things wandering around. 07:53:09 You had your anti protons and your positron, but trying to get large numbers of them together was itself, challenging the shore, and then just, if you just start off trying to get you know a bunch of protons are positive, a bunch of positrons a bunch 07:53:26 of anti protons, turn into into hydrogen, without any real idea about how to do it. It just keeps failing. 07:53:35 Right. 07:53:36 So you're actually takes some took them a long time to be able to get to a point where they could build something like anti hydrogen right and then I guess it's really hard to hold on to once you've got it because yeah because now you've got a neutral, 07:53:51 Adam. Right. Yeah, you can't use magnetism to confine it anymore. Well, you might be able to use magnetism but you can't use electricity can't use an electrostatic field it's a lot easier to create. 07:54:02 Oh, right, because there's still a small magnetic moment right there should be yeah I think so, it only has one electron, possibly the Nuclear Magnetic woman cancels out. 07:54:12 I think not. I'm not sure I can think so far that they found it to have the same, the same properties like magnetic moment as hydrogen and short. Yeah, at least the same intensity I don't know if the sign is any different. 07:54:26 Well, um so yeah we should talk about negative matter, at some point, and negative mass and all the weird things that can happen if you have type of matter, which has an intrinsically negative gravitational field. 07:54:40 He even talked about in one of his papers that if a way to collect it from the universe that if there was a charged particle of negative mass that there'd be a way to harvest it from the universe if you know it existed 07:54:57 was kind of interesting. I think we've got everything we need to say about this right. Yeah, we've done a PR I think we've covered pretty much all the basics for Greta electromagnetism and hopefully someday we'll, we'll see some of these experiments in 07:55:08 the lab. You know, there was an interesting paper written just about a year or two ago that talked about the prospect for generating grow Vito magnetic field, small one, using some kind of, I don't know like almost like a pinch generator or something. 07:55:25 I'll have to look that up, but apparently with the same kind of investment that we put into the Large Hadron Collider, these physicist published a paper which shows that you could generate gravity Alex gravitational waves in the lab. 07:55:39 All you have to do is put in as much investment as the Large Hadron Collider. 07:55:44 Maybe you can make your own gravitational waves. Right. Well, we just need to find the right billionaire. 07:55:50 So, I'll put together a little paypal account. 07:55:54 And if you're a billionaire. 07:55:57 You know, go ahead and send us the cash and we'll, we'll get that work and pay, you know, there's probably a Nobel Prize in there for somebody, could you think the first people to make a laboratory grab gravitational wave, especially if you were able 07:56:09 to make it before the guys saw the first one they did see one right oh yeah they detected one at the Lego observatory right here in Houma Louisiana. So, I mean, it might be too late and might not be a Nobel Prize thing anymore but if you'd have done it 07:56:24 before then probably wouldn't work. I don't know, maybe there's a difference between detecting one, and then making one in the lab, of course, the problem is, is that the Nobel Prize I think only comes with, you know, 100 grand. 07:56:36 I think it would cost like several billion to create this thing. Yeah, but that's the whole point of like the X Prize and all that other stuff is you give you give a little prize, that really doesn't cover the cost of the development. 07:56:49 Otherwise, you know, you could just develop it yourself, but everybody wants to have the prestige of, you know, being the person who funded the team that did whatever it was, I think the same thing was true with sort of the prize for, you know, the longitude 07:57:03 longitude problem. Yeah, it's all it's all about the prestige Right, yeah. If you're a multi billionaire, you need to have you know something to brag about when you go to your parties with all the other multi billionaires. 07:57:15 Yeah you know it can't be, you know, I made 500 million this morning. Oh, sort of, well, right, generating the first gravitational wave in the laboratory would totally shoot down every guy that climbed Everest and then sailed a bungee jumped off the Eiffel 07:57:31 Tower or whatever. 07:57:37 Yeah, what did you do this one. 07:57:40 Exactly. Oh, this came from the gravitational lab where we're manipulating space and time. All right. Well, that sounds awesome. 07:57:48 All right, Jim, thanks for your time and we'll have to meet again next week to talk about something else fascinating. 07:57:55 I'm sure there's another fascinating thing out there, by now.


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