Randy shares a couple of his favorite papers with Jim: discussion about general relativity by engineer and science fiction author Robert L. Forward on how general relativity could be used in a terrestrial environment, including proposals for devices and materials.
1. Papers we read for this program:
2. Related Episodes of Physics Frontiers:
Transcript (Rough Draft; added 2020/07/13)
09:49:18 Hey Randy How's it going, Good.
09:49:20 Good to hear from you.
09:49:23 So I heard you wanted to talk about anti gravity or something like that. That's right. This week we're going to talk about probably the most exciting thing in horizon physics in this the thing that kept me interested in physics from a young age is the
09:49:37 prospect of a gravitational field technology synthesized man made artificial gravitational field, and you're looking at this from a particular perspective, you're looking at this from Bob forwards, ideas, as I understand.
09:49:51 That's right. The, it took a while for me to find this but turns out the back in 1961 1962 and absolutely brilliant physicist who was also a fiction writer named Robert L forward had published a couple of papers and, frankly, I found all of his papers
09:50:07 to be riveting, he wrote a number of technical memorandums for major defense contractors, one of the papers, we're going to look at tonight was a technical paper written for the US Research Corporation, which is one of the top, you know, black projects.
09:50:24 Top secret military science kind of facilities in the country, the similar probably Lockheed Martin's Skunk Works.
09:50:32 So he was writing papers for these people about cutting edge theoretical physics concepts, maybe as a cornerstone for them to start new research we really have no idea what's going on inside these facilities, but it wouldn't surprise me if they haven't
09:50:48 played around and extended this work, substantially in the last 50 years. All right, so we've got two papers here the main one we're going to look at is guidelines anti gravity, and that was published in the American Journal of physics, the American Journal
09:51:04 of physics is an educational journal. Okay. So, the main use of the American Journal of physics, I think, is to sort of propagate examples for students.
09:51:18 So, of course.
09:51:18 Well, that's where it got published but I believe that it was originally written for us research laboratories, you should see that at the top of the paper downloaded off the internet.
09:51:29 And you'll see at the top under says guidelines to anti gravity, Robert L forward, he was Research Laboratories Malibu, California received on the 12th of September 62, and then you can see that it was reprinted from the American Journal of physics.
09:51:44 From 1963, so I believe it was initially right written for them and then published, no okay so yeah when you're reading these things. Yeah, where it says user research laboratory Malibu Malibu, California, that's just as address.
09:51:55 Oh, so that's where he was employed at the time when he's, when he wrote this paper. Okay, yeah, yeah so this wasn't a top secret paper that he snuck out to a bunch of undergraduates.
09:52:05 Oh no, I'm not saying it was a top secret papers smuggled out but it was, I mean he was research laboratories, and he was Hughes Aircraft I believe it is today.
09:52:14 They do a lot of that really cutting edge black projects kind of research and science.
09:52:20 I met scientist to physicist, while I was studying USC, who said that, that he couldn't tell me what what he was working on, but but anything that I could imagine they had already done.
09:52:34 And I was like, Well, you know, I can imagine a lot. He's like, I know. Okay.
09:52:38 So, I mean, yeah, I mean Bob forward was working on a lot of things like that. Um, he was also. He also wrote this general relativity for the experimentalists, which was in the Proceedings of the I already know what it stands for.
09:52:51 Yeah, Institute of radio engineers to defunct journal, it was, that was part of the I triple E which is a large in electrical engineering. It is the Electrical Engineering Society.
09:53:03 So, you know, this is a reasonably good thing. So when I looked at when I looked this up, and I'm on I Tripoli explore it says, Stop being published in 1962.
09:53:14 Go to the proceedings of the I triple E. Well this is why I love this is why I love Robert forward so much is that he was writing about really on the fringe concepts.
09:53:24 I carry is talking about well how do you do experiments on general relativity, in a laboratory environment.
09:53:31 How do you, how do you create gravitational effects that you can measure, and he was in he was a very credible mainstream scientific thinker, being here he has his papers republished like you're like you say, and reputable places, and it's all about based
09:53:47 on very firm science, I'd like to get into the deep stuff into later time but I mean there are a lot of interesting things in this paper about, you know, different systems that he's looking at in these approximation that he has.
09:54:06 I think it's worthwhile to just talk about that approximation before we talk about the systems just say what the issues are right. Yeah, I'd like to. I want to do that too but first I want to mention that what we're talking about his, his very recently
09:54:11 come to the fore. In terms of viable experimental proposal. There's a paper called how current loops and Solon though it's curved space time in physics review de by an author named fuse, or whose know this was a 2015 paper, and in, in that paper he describes
09:54:34 a fairly challenging, but but attainable experimental setup involving to superconducting solenoids to be powered under constant current, I believe it's something like 10,000 amps or electrical current that could distort space time enough to shift to the
09:54:57 phase of light propagating through that space time and be detected. So here we've got a proposal that we could do that it looks like it's about maybe on the scale of San DSZ machine experiment where you've got like these 30 foot diameter of superconducting
09:55:16 magnets, and you've got a laser beam bouncing between along the access that joins them.
09:55:24 And it shifts the, the phase of the light enough that you could detect it with an interferometer and interferometer a similar to that in the, in the Lego experiment, the Lego gravitational wave detectors.
09:55:39 So I thought you were just talking about measuring the change of pace of light. That's right. That's exactly right. You would pass a beam, between them solenoids and then pass another beam.
09:55:50 That would go through the solenoid so you could detect the, the change in the geometry of space time, or the rather than the distance I guess between them.
09:55:59 Yeah, so that would be a standard interferometer setup there's no reason to talk about something that scale of Lego. Right.
09:56:06 Well, it wouldn't need to be as big, but it would use the exact same principle, and in the same high precision tuning that they've employed to to get their detection sensitivity down to like 10 to the minus 11th radians per second of shift.
09:56:21 So, using that that level of sensitivity on a much smaller scale, you don't need laser beams that are like a kilometer long or anything. I think you just need them a few meters in the case of this experiment that you could detect the shift of the phase
09:56:35 in the in the interference pattern. Okay, so we'll talk about that at some point after I've actually looked at it and, well, I just wanted to mention it because we're talking about these 1961 and 1962 papers.
09:56:47 And at that time, this kind of experiment was considered to be beyond the reach of our current technology and Robert forward a few cases mentioned things that we hadn't proven yet.
09:56:57 Like, he, he was talking about the magnetic field, he calls the rotational field, because I believe at that time the term Vito magnetic hadn't been invented yet.
09:57:09 And, and we've already proven, the veto magnetic field around the Earth. I believe he proposes a satellite experiment to test it, but he felt that it was beyond our ability to detect.
09:57:20 Well, 40 years 50 years later, we did that experiment, and after making some effort NASA made some breakthrough advances in in gyroscope technology, and we were able to verify that that the Greta magnetic coupling induces the type of shift in the gyroscopes
09:57:41 to within 10% of the prediction of general relativity. Okay, we'll put that on the list to.
09:57:47 So basically what you want to point out here is that even though these are old papers, they still have something to offer. Oh, there's not a lot to offer but it's fascinating that even in since they've republished we've already accumulated additional
09:58:00 experimental evidence to that really shows up the foundation of their basic assumptions and tenants, which is that, you know, if we if we put our thinking caps on we can move ahead with experimentation on artificial gravitational fields in the lab.
09:58:17 Alright so let's actually talk about these papers do we wanted to talk about sort of the assumptions that go into this because forwards just looking at things in an approximation.
09:58:26 So he wants to look at these things and approximation that will be viable for, you know, human experimentation. Yeah, in order to make the equations to give us equations which an engineer would be comfortable using to predict the magnitude of effects
09:58:42 to within the first order approximation. He went through a process in general relativity for the experimentalists where, if you go to the week field limit, and you use small masses using it non relativistic velocities etc etc.
09:58:56 You can arrive it.
09:58:59 It's some analytical equations which are pretty easy to work with, that are actually inform identical to Maxwell's equations.
09:59:14 Yeah, and I think it's important and I think this is one of these things where if you're talking about something like this, I think it's important to keep in mind everything that's in the approximation.
09:59:21 And, you know, we're talking about sort of low mass density, sort of normal mass density, right, we're talking about, much lower than the speed of light, the Connecticut potential energy is that we're using to describe the system should be much less than
09:59:35 the rest mass of any of the objects that we care about.
09:59:39 The fields are always weak enough to that sort of position is valid and basically what that means is that the you know the bending of space is such that, you can always use a sort of local linear approximation, and have a linear force to work with.
09:59:57 Okay. And the distance between two objects aren't really really really large, right. So, you're dealing with sizes of things that you could reasonably do it you've not just in the live record but possibly or something the size of the Earth, but you don't
10:00:10 really care about this approximation isn't going to work very well for anything where you know you're looking at the interaction between galaxies or something like that.
10:00:20 Right now there's no delay in the propagation, that you can measure, yet the way he's done this is you know you don't worry about that delay. That's what we do and electromagnetism all the time for undergraduates because for most of you graduate stuff
10:00:33 as well because doesn't really matter for most effects. So he had basically two parts to this paper guidelines for anti gravity, and some of these things are repeated in the other paper and a lot of the things that I'd like to bring in from the other
10:00:47 paper would be things that were, you know, would fit in the first part of this, you know when he talks about non Newtonian gravitational forces, but basically, he's looking at the effects.
10:01:01 You know the gravitational effects that don't look just like us lot of universal gravitational.
10:01:07 And the second part are devices, and what you need to have for those devices that actually might have some interesting little magnetic effects basically yeah what was great about general relativity for the experiment list is that he went through and showed
10:01:22 you the derivations and the full equations explored the expand even give you some, some numerical examples of the linear eyes equations that he was employing, and to show you the magnitude of results of different types of scenarios.
10:01:40 And that would be reasonably attainable in the lab. But in guidelines to anti gravity, he's focusing more on the types of effects that that can be observed, where you're looking at the inductive qualities of credo magnetism, or you've got moving masses,
10:01:59 interacting with both stationary and other moving test bodies. And then he gets into the experimental concepts, and that's where it really gets exciting, because he talks about at the very end, he brings in a generator.
10:02:13 What a generator might look like of a dipole gravitational field. Yeah, basically starts out and it gives you these different things to look at. Right, like first he shows you the rotating ring right yeah so I think he's just sort of building this up
10:02:26 because he's adding each one of these another effect. So, yeah, First he is has this rotating ring so that's a steady state effect. And it's a lot like having just a current which is what we do in electromagnetism, to generate a title field.
10:02:41 Right. But I think what you're showing us there's a counter intuitive effect that we want to really we don't conventionally think of when we think of gravity.
10:02:50 And in this case what he's talking about is that if you have a test body, it's inside a spinning ring of mass and the spinning ring acts like a mass current which is the analogy of an electrical current that the test body won't fall towards the center
10:03:07 of gravity like you might expect, but it'll actually be repelled from the center of gravity, and it'll move towards the ring. And that's a that's a counter intuitive thought because we're used to thinking of things falling towards the center of gravity.
10:03:20 Okay, so you're, you're certain that that's what he means because one of the issues that I had with reading this and it still here is that I'm not completely sure I guess I guess that is right.
10:03:31 It says he forces the test body away from the axis and an imitation of the centrifugal force, the force that he gave was an approximation.
10:03:40 And it wasn't completely sure what that approximation was. It should not be surprising that the effect is more or less the opposite of what you get with a.
10:03:51 And, and so it's kind of a little odd what it does, but yeah you're right it's it's pushing away in the plane.
10:04:02 So if it's not directly on that access what it's going to do is it's going to get pulled up towards that rotating right yeah and the plane of rotation it'll get attracted to that but it'll, it'll get sort of repelled from the center.
10:04:15 Yeah, to track it to the ring, the ring around it, and it gets pushed towards the center in the axial direction and then the directions perpendicular to that it gets pushed towards that ring, at least according this approximation and assuming that this
10:04:29 approximation is only good on the inside.
10:04:38 Yeah, I don't know what happens on the outside, I'd have to actually, we have to look at that in terms of some numbers for you yeah we actually work it out.
10:04:41 He doesn't have much of a guide here he just sort of gives three components of a course.
10:04:53 He gives it as acceleration but it's basically just the force on, on the object. Well, that's not entirely true because it doesn't matter what the mass of the test body is so it wouldn't really be for us as much as acceleration Right.
10:05:00 Well what he's produced is really grabbed the gravitational field the gravitational field is an acceleration. That's right.
10:05:07 So, the electric field is not, but because the charge and the inertia are the same, because of the equivalence between gravitational charge and mercial mass, just turns it directly into a on acceleration.
10:05:22 And so, and so that's why it gives these accelerations, but obviously you can just look at it as force, because, again, they're the same thing.
10:05:32 Because, I mean one of the interesting things is that he calls these non Newtonian forces, but he doesn't say why they're non Newtonian I think for the most part, he's just saying these are pseudo forces, these are like centrifugal force because it's
10:05:45 you know it's a it's a false force it's just there because you've when your eyes the coordinate system in some way. So centrifugal force you just pretending like you're, you're rotating thing is that rotating.
10:05:57 And then you have to have a fake force that's pushing everything out from the center right in this case obviously you're taking you know the full general relativity, which says everything's twisty and funny looking in, and then you're planning it out
10:06:12 and saying what what happens if I pretend it's not twisting funny looking and you say, well, you have this additional, sort of, you have that, then you have to have this additional force, which does these strange things.
10:06:24 That's what I think he means it right when when first he said non Newtonian forces what I thought he meant was, they did not follow one of one of the three Newton's laws, but instead of all it is is a way of accounting for for nonlinear effects in a linear
10:06:37 environment. Okay, yeah, we're looking at Maxwell style behaviors with induction and everything instead of like the basic laws of motion.
10:06:47 Newton came up with.
10:06:49 Well, Maxwell's equations are perfectly fine for all these things as far as Newton's laws are concerned, so I don't see that there's an issue there.
10:06:58 Well, I mean the Newton doesn't have anything like induction right. There's no such thing as you wouldn't have a. He didn't know anything about the magnetic field or anything like that right no he didn't know anything about the magnetic field.
10:07:10 But that doesn't mean that Newton's laws on the pot. Yeah, that's another issue, but Newton's laws still apply in electrostatic so and they need us. So this is why you're thinking that when he said non Newtonian and you might be referring to the equivalents
10:07:22 principle and how, there wasn't a difference between charge and inertial mass, no no I don't think that at all. Okay. What I think is that when he says non Newtonian forces all he means is that we're pretending like space time is flat and even in our
10:07:37 approximation we have, we have these small deviations from a flat space time and we're just going to pretend that those small deviations are forces, rather than God.
10:07:49 Okay, that makes sense because yeah but although I do struggle with this at this point because now after, after checking out g for VI, so strongly favoring that as an assumption that I'm not even thinking in terms of curve space time anymore I'm just
10:08:05 looking at that as an interpretation of the forces and effects.
10:08:09 Well I guess that could be another way of looking at things. Obviously if you can look at current space time as if it was horses.
10:08:17 Then you could look at forces if there are curved space. Okay. So, but, but what forward doesn't this paper is then he goes on the ads, right. So, first he has the rotating ring.
10:08:27 Then he decides okay what I want to do is I want to have a moving test particle on the inside of hollow rotating sphere. I think that's important because the hollow sphere, there's no force on that object on the inside, because the static gravitational
10:08:42 component is zero everywhere inside as a hollow sphere. And so any forces that you see are the purely a vector potential generated forces Right. Well yeah, anything that you see on the inside is purely due to the rotation.
10:08:56 And what he ends up with is basically two forces on that Max, right, that, that he adds together one is basically a stationary force right which is almost identical within a factor to the rotating ring so the rotating ring has a nasty factor of, lots
10:09:21 of little constants that aren't really important. But it's proportional to the square of the rotation rate, and it has a factor of one half on the station reports for the routine routine sphere has that same omega squared factor, and it has a factor of
10:09:36 415, so instead of one half, for whatever reason, I'm not sure why the fact report. I think it might be four fifths and I think that has something to do with, it's it's for 15, because I'm, I've separated out these two things way forward hasn't written.
10:09:50 He's got both effects combined and each direction so what I did was because I recognize the similarities, because I just separated out the stationary part, which is the part that looks like the result from the routine ring.
10:10:05 Oh, I see. And the dynamic part you combined the bind the denominators, and.
10:10:12 And so, for whatever this one half factor is for the rotating ring that's a 415 factor to look like I'm, it's not exactly like but it's a lot like say a moment of inertia.
10:10:23 It might be a lot closer than I think it is, but it's not exactly what you get for with a moment of inertia as far as I know, as far as I know, but it's similar enough that it's that it's interesting.
10:10:35 Especially that you get these differences that are like a moment of inertia. So inside this inside this rotating sphere I didn't quite see where these different forces breakdown there's two different equations one for the xy plane.
10:10:47 And I guess that's the deck material rotation. Then there's a z component. Okay so, so yeah. Now remember, remember what's happening here is the spheres rotating around the z axis.
10:10:58 Okay, just like the ring was working around the z axis in the previous example. So, if you look at each one of these terms right you have this forfeits omega squared x right and you have this four fifths, omega squared Y, and you have this, you have something
10:11:14 very, very similar if you go down to the zz you have this 815 omega squared z.
10:11:21 All these things are the same force basically, they have the same position dependence, as that force where the rotating ring, which is the force for the rotating ring is proportional to the distance in the xy plane from that axis, minus twice the distance
10:11:41 in the z direction in this direction. So from the center of the is the center of mass of the object that same dependence is in both these examples, and that's the stationary that that says that says my particle is not moving the additional part that he
10:11:59 actually puts in here is that at omega vy, it will make a VX, and that's actually a cross product basically of omega and.
10:12:09 So, the rotation of the body which is around the z axis and the velocity in whatever direction is going, the velocity, the rotation of the sphere, and the velocity of the test particle.
10:12:26 Okay, so what would happen if you had a test particle placed above the plane of rotation in this spinning scenario is it going to fall towards the plane of rotation, and towards the, the shell of the equator.
10:12:41 So if you have if you just placed it in here it's not moving in that spherical show, it will have almost the exact dependence, as the test body and the retainer, the only difference will be it will feel a smaller worse then with the rotating ring.
10:12:56 Given that rotating ring in the end the shooting shall have the same mass, and the same radius and moving at the same speed and stuff like that.
10:13:08 And then, then he moves on to the effect of accelerating accelerated masses on stationary bodies. Yeah, this was kind of interesting oh this is, is this frame dragging.
10:13:18 Yes. So in that case, he breaks it down into three cases. Right.
10:13:23 And these cases are the normal gravitational force that first term is a normal gravitational force.
10:13:32 So the force on the test body from a big moving thing going by. Is there a gravitational force that it would normally feel, then basically the acceleration of that giant moving body, times the scalar potential and and constant factor.
10:13:51 So the scalar potential between these two the skirt scalar potential.
10:13:57 Basically it's the potential energy of situation times acceleration of a big thing divided by the square of the speed of light. So based on how these two things are interacting with each other.
10:14:07 The interaction strength is basically the scalar potential, that's the regular gravitational force that we all know and love. And then it gets pulled, also with the acceleration that this other body has tangentially that the tangential component right.
10:14:24 It does not say, according to this that's not the tangential component. Now, there's a, there's another component that third component i think is so it has a projection of the acceleration, the correction between the big object and the small object.
10:14:40 I think that's what you just met the deal will be sort of a combination of both the scalar, and the vector components right. Okay, so let's see I've got four things that I go here I have a constant.
10:14:54 I have this scalar potential again.
10:14:58 The gravitational potential energy.
10:16:36 And a concept that.
10:16:38 So the scalar potential between these two the skirt scalar potential.
10:16:43 Basically it's the potential energy of situation times the acceleration of a big thing divided by the square for the speed of light. So based on how these two things are interacting with each other.
10:16:52 The interaction strength is basically the scalar potential, that's the regular gravitational force that we all know and love. And then it gets pulled all also with the acceleration of that this other body has tangentially that the tangential component
10:17:10 It does not say, according to this that's not the tangential component. Now, there's a, there's another component that third component i think is so it has a projection of the acceleration.
10:17:23 The direction between the big object and the small object. I think that's what you just met that he will, but sort of a combination of both of the scalar, and vector components right.
10:17:35 Okay, so let's see I've got four things that I go here I have a constant.
10:17:40 I have this scalar potential again.
10:17:44 The gravitational potential energy.
10:17:46 I've got the projection of the acceleration in the direction of the vector connecting the center of mass of the two objects. And then I have the velocity of the big object and and so that I think is what you were talking about in that previous one, the
10:18:01 tangential component. That's one way to talk about the tangential component normally I talked about the tangential component component in the direction of the velocity.
10:18:10 Yeah, that's what I was thinking of that is that is that it's going to be parallel to the surface velocity at the equator, on the equatorial plane. Right.
10:18:19 Well this is the is the velocity of the large body what direction it's moving. Right, so.
10:18:25 Oh, I see he's he doesn't have the, he doesn't have the test mass in the equatorial plane he's got it off at some funny angle. Yeah, it's doing whatever it wants to do so that's why you've got this kind of got this lesson.
10:18:37 He shows you the vector math to show you the final trajectory. Yeah, so I mean that's sort of useful because he's got these got three different courses and this one's going this way, this one's going that way and so forth and so on.
10:18:50 One's completely radial right which is going to be our normal one, the one that's kind of in the direction of the velocity is the last one that I was just talking about and there's one in terms of the acceleration of the large object.
10:19:05 So basically you have three forces on the small object that are based on the motion of the large optic emotion and the position of the larger. Okay, so what's the what's the final result in that case, it looks like the result in vector is directly towards
10:19:19 the center of gravity so how would you even notice that I don't think that's true. I think that he doesn't have anything for the results and so that, so that are is the distance from the center of mass of the small object to the center of mass of a big
10:19:33 object that is not the result. Oh, I see. And he has a very in that particular figure figure three in this guidelines to anti gravity that will link to in the show notes that figure he has a very special configuration to make it as clear as possible.
10:19:49 What's going on with each one of these terms that he's labeled f1 f2 and f3, which are those three components that I talked about earlier, I see the regular, the regular force, the force from the acceleration in the forest from the velocity and or, these
10:20:05 are the forces in those directions and and yeah anyways.
10:20:10 This is simple as you can get it but he hasn't put an actual resultant direction in there, I'm not sure if he really can.
10:20:19 considering you don't know what B and A are comparatively, right, you'd have to actually plug in some numbers and that, in this particular case that direction can probably be anywhere from completely perpendicular to the direction of motion of the large
10:20:34 body to directly parallel to it, it probably can be anywhere in the, depending on the relative values of our A and B.
10:20:43 But if this, but as we since we know what gravity magnetism does and we know that if test body is near rotating massive body like the earth that to somebody, or even more dramatically to like rotating neutron star, instead of falling straight in, it would
10:21:00 actually fall in and kind of a spiral trajectory.
10:21:03 Yeah, actually that's a little more like the previous example but the sphere. Yeah so so this one the effect of the accelerated masses on the stationary bodies that has a long way to go to start talking about to start talking about what happens with a
10:21:18 rotation, we're taking things.
10:21:21 But the dynamical effect in the rotating hollow sphere is just that the dynamical effect is basically a rotation effect. So, the interaction with the stationary particle is just like with the ring, where it's trying to go towards the center of mass and
10:21:37 the z direction but towards the edge in the x and y directions.
10:21:42 Whereas, the effect of the rotation is to make the particle spin around, and I didn't look at the signs so I don't know what the signs are going the same direction as the rotation, or not I think it's in the same direction as the rotation.
10:21:57 Yeah, so it gets dragged along with it so it's got to be the same direction. So, that's where that effect actually shows up so this is not the effect that we think it is this is just a big object that's accelerating in some direction is going to pull
10:22:11 this other object along with oh no wonder I'm getting all mixed up i thought that i thought that the the acceleration the news talking about was the rotational was the acceleration at the surface, and I thought it was rotating body and not an actual.
10:22:24 This is a linearly moving solid body and, yeah, you know, in that case, when you have an object it's, you know, accelerating and given direction than any test body nearby it will sort of get pulled along in that direction with it.
10:22:38 Yeah. And this is showing exactly how it gets attracted towards the center, and in and how much is along is along the direction of its movement, and how much is towards the flight path.
10:22:51 Yeah, exactly. So, yeah. Now, I would like to get this moving along because you know we have time constraints.
10:23:01 And you were really interested in talking about these devices. Yeah, because you would hit this, he did go through in these both of these papers a couple examples, one where this was a fluid, moving through a couple of pipes and you get a pinch effect,
10:23:16 which is analogous to ampere as law where you get an attraction repulsion from currents moving in parallel wires.
10:23:23 There was a see another example that he gave.
10:23:31 Let's see I can't remember what it was, he did so okay. The other thing that.
10:23:35 So the two things I needed in this paper was was opposed to the pipes. Right.
10:23:41 And the other one were rotating gyroscopes, and the rotating gyroscopes act like magnetic moments. Yeah and you know what's fascinating about that is that you have, if you have two rotating gyroscopes you said that, that the grabiner magnetic effect could
10:23:55 cause them to repel each other. Yes, so the he's so he's saying that, that the gradient magnetic effect can be stronger than the static, the scalar potential between them.
10:24:06 And that's exciting. Well, I'm not. Well, I'm not sure if he's.
10:24:11 I'm not sure if he's saying that but I use say that the when you're in. He's saying that it's. Is he is he saying that or is he saying that the net effect of the rotation is is in the opposite direction.
10:24:25 No, he said that they would you could actually get them to repel yeah he says repel each other, according to properly I'm still not completely sure if it says he doesn't have an actual number here.
10:24:40 I'm not sure if he's, he's saying that the object will actually go the opposite direction.
10:24:48 I'd love to do that to do a calculation on that because it's really critical for a lot of things, um, but I mean it is interesting I mean that is one way to model a magnetic moment, like a magnet.
10:24:59 What's one way to model a magnetic moment, like the spin of an electron in in an object, and, and, and if that's possible. I mean, that would be interesting.
10:25:14 I don't know in one of these cases, one of these papers he talked about, you know, he didn't talk about the speeds you cried about.
10:25:22 He talked about the density. Right.
10:25:26 of things how and stresses. So the issue. One of the issues here was that, to really see a lot of these effects you need things going really really fast and material stress limits are are somewhere around the speed of sound.
10:25:42 So, that means that if you're spending something right and you have this centrifugal force.
10:25:52 If you have this out we're pressing force on the ring, or whatever. The narrow scope.
10:25:59 And it goes past the speed of sound, then it's going to break apart you need something to keep them together and he said that, you know, if you've got really really massive things, right, then the massive things can provide that that attraction to keep
10:26:14 things together gravitationally gravitationally but something in the laboratory if you want it to look something like this in the lab record just to keep something together.
10:26:23 Wow, spins fast enough that you might actually be able to see it you'll have to use magnets for an electric field. Right. And that's a good idea.
10:26:35 I suppose that that was something like that would have to come into play in the senate scenario where he's describing this gravitational dipole generator.
10:26:46 That looks like a, like a choke for in electronics where you have a tour royal core with an unwinding of electrical current around it, except in this case, the elect the winding is replaced by pipes that have a flowing fluid through them.
10:27:04 So you have a mass current flowing in it in this spiral around a ring a donut shape ring.
10:27:12 And in this case, all of the flow is happening in the same direction through the center, and in the same direction on the outside edges. And this, in this if you accelerate that flow, then you create a gravitational dipole.
10:27:27 Yeah, so that means this constantly linearly accelerating flow rate, which is a little bit i mean you know you've got a limit to that.
10:27:40 And, but I mean he needs this the way he's set this up is that he has a linearly increasing flow rate.
10:27:47 But, you know, he's got he's.
10:27:51 But on top of that, you have some issues where you have all sorts of different parameters and they're all going to change a little bit when you're doing this, so it's not that it's not quite as easy as just as likely to.
10:28:08 It's not quite as easy as if you're doing this electronically and trying to create an electric field so.
10:28:13 So yeah, I mean the in the way that this is set up is basically in an hour. In analogy to creating an electric electric dipole.
10:28:24 Using a wound.
10:28:28 You know, using a winding over a Taurus. Well, if we look at it, just in pure theoretical terms, when it in ordinary total conductor, have an nonzero, but a measurable.
10:28:43 Gravitational dipole. When it's charging up, because the electrons are moving in that, in that spiral around the core, and they have mass, and they'd be accelerating like if we used his super like a superconducting wire, like he like Carver meet talked
10:29:02 about when you put a potential on it. The current continually increases Right. Yeah.
10:29:10 So, it's so we would never be able to measure it but but an ordinary Toral the doctor and doctor may already be a very very weak dipole gravitational field generator.
10:29:20 Well I mean it would have to be I was thinking about that a little bit here.
10:29:25 You know, because even though, you know, we even though we normally think of.
10:29:30 A lot of times when we're talking about electromagnetism, we're just talking about the flow of charge.
10:29:35 We have that charge flow, we have a charge flow you have a mass flow as well. Right. And, and so you have to have the same sort of effects occurring as well although, you know, the charge, that's actually increasing as the charges moving very slowly,
10:29:53 on average, and so is the.
10:30:06 And, you know, the amount the actual amount of matter the actual mass is very small as well. But the same ideas would apply. So, if you could create this electric dipole.
10:30:15 And you can then you should be creating this gravitational dipole. At the same time, although it's in the opposite direction, but other than that there's Toshi by that's really fascinating.
10:30:21 I would love to see an experiment like this done he talks about some of the limitations that we'd have to overcome in order to make observable effects in the laboratory.
10:30:31 And have you got any ideas on those he's, he spelled out some, the need for much much higher density materials.
10:30:40 And I thought was it he brought up degenerate matter. I'm not sure what degenerate matter is. And then he also talked about.
10:30:49 Super positions of to tetra neutrons, and other cold buzz on condensates.
10:30:55 So you could get particles superimposed upon each other and overcome these density limitations. Yeah, I mean, he said he needs something like that I'm not really sure how many places you have anything like that.
10:31:08 Right. and I think that was part of his issue.
10:31:12 But, you know, I don't really know what the densities they have gotten with the condensates dude he was very very far away from seen any condensates at that point.
10:31:24 Although I don't think they're anywhere near this. So, you know, in standard SI units.
10:31:31 He's talking about 10 to the 11th to attend the 18 kilograms per cubic meter.
10:31:37 And that is really really dense. So, the density of lead is 11,300.
10:31:50 So, one times 10 to the fourth.
10:31:53 kilograms per cubic meter.
10:31:56 So it's so long way from wherever we want to be, what now what is degenerate matter is that when, when like in.
10:32:08 I guess it would be like neutron stars, where there are no longer distinguishable protons and neutrons but there's just kind of like a core glue on plasma is that what he's talking about.
10:32:19 Um, yeah, I think, I think in general it's, you know, this weird mixture of particles and, and that you can like works, and it's, it's not something that you really have on earth right so I'm not sure people, people know how to make it.
10:32:34 I don't think so. Well we've, we've created Quark gluon on plasma is by colliding a heavy, heavy nuclei like gold nuclei together, but of course that's only a fraction of a moment that we create that extremely high pressures and temperatures, but I think
10:32:52 we have created that micro instantaneous scale.
10:32:57 I think they've studied cork glue on jets and that kind of thing coming out of this, this plasma.
10:33:04 It's not really nuclear material anymore it's, yeah I'm yeah i mean but all those things are things that you know we can't.
10:33:14 we can't conform. I mean I can't, I can't really find anything that tells me about, you know, what's the largest density that you can have with with a real thing is, you know, I can find, you know what, the largest element is.
10:33:31 But I, but you know I can't find you sort of things that we can barely create what those are. I didn't do that research.
10:33:51 I, but, you know, it looks like it looks like 10 to the fourth is where we are and we tend the 11th.
10:33:50 According to him, although, you know, some of these things Ted for neutrons. Maybe you can make them I don't know.
10:34:06 Um, but, but really what he wants to do is he wants to get some sort of matter that has, has some nonlinear property right and and deep well right now you're talking about the idea that he was talking about like the gravitational analog of electrical
10:34:20 He was saying that in order to amplify these fields that we'd need material that had a very high and nonlinear like Vito magnetic permeability. Yeah so so basically we need something like a thorough magnetic materials, he needs some.
10:34:37 He needs feral gravitation. Right.
10:34:43 And possibly that means he needs something like paragraph. Before that he needs something that would have this polarized magnetic field already sort of coming from it.
10:34:53 That's basically what a feral magnet is. That's what this whole nonlinear density is in a thorough manner, right or this is what the nonlinear permeability in a feral magnet is it's basically the existing magnetic field in the atoms, the arrangement of
10:35:06 atoms. Yeah, it's basically that the magnetic field is already there because each one of these atoms has its own spin angular momentum and that's a magnetic moment that creates a little old field, and those fields have to align themselves.
10:35:21 So, you need two things really to make something like a feral magnet one you need a paragraph annotation right, of all things, which would be for each atom would have to have its own sort of gravitational dipole moment.
10:35:37 On top of that you'd want pair of gravitational. I can't believe I'm saying that you'd want these pair of gravitational atoms to actually want to align themselves the way of thermal magnet does with some sort of exchange interaction, so you need two things
10:35:53 to make that actually work. And I'm not sure how that's going to work well he mentioned that he mentioned in this paper that the magnetic moment and the inertial moment are combined and Adams, and that provides a direct coupling between time varying electromagnetic
10:36:07 fields and time during reveal magnetic fields.
10:36:10 So and I was thinking about how in Mr eyes.
10:36:14 When they set up the high magnetic field, they actually align the magnetic moments of the atoms of the hydrogen atoms, and then they use a map in the radiation field and em field.
10:36:32 That works at the same frequency as the procession of that axis along the magnetic field in order to spin them out along the equator, so we can already control, to some extent, the rotational axis of the, of the nuclei.
10:36:51 So maybe we could do that with other materials, you know, I was thinking about how uranium, and maybe the super heavy elements that we haven't been able to find yet on the island of stability, have an asymmetrical core.
10:37:05 The they're, they're sort of overplayed steroids. And some people think that the super heavy elements will have like a dumbbell shaped nucleus. And so, if you get those babies rotating, then you should be able to generate, not just a gravitational magnetic
10:37:25 field but gravitational waves. Right, so that would be interesting.
10:37:30 Depending on it but I mean, how long would they actually last. Well, I know that you with a, with an MRI machine, they can align the axis of rotation indefinitely as long as they keep the field on.
10:37:44 And then they stay spin them up to do an equatorial rotation with radio waves, when that before they turn it off and then detect the energy when they restore back to their axial orientation.
10:37:59 So, we can already do some of this kind of thing was, you know, indefinitely using a magnetic field.
10:38:08 I think that that's that was this was a direction that a NASA scientist named namely was take was going in, she was doing something different though she was taking a superconducting material and spinning it and believe that she was using the spin of this
10:38:26 disk to align the spin of the atoms in the material. I'm not sure how that works. It's something that has to do with gyro magnetic or gyroscope forces, but I'm.
10:38:40 She was.
10:38:41 But then she disappeared.
10:38:42 There was a little bit of talk about her work in that direction and then people think that she got to work on a military project because nobody's heard anything since.
10:38:54 Um, But so scary. So scary sciences so scary.
10:38:59 Well, I guess when you get into the really good stuff the military wants to classify it and use it to make weapons or something.
10:39:09 All right. Um Is there anything else you want to talk about with these guys I know you've got something to go to.
10:39:14 Oh that's right yeah I got to go Say goodbye to somebody, so I'll say goodbye to you first. And thank you for your time. Thanks for this Randy will get together.
10:39:22 Another time to talk about gr for the experimentalists and more detail possibly talk about it with respect to that g4 v. And we had two other things we wanted to get to what was that first one you wanted to talk about.
10:39:34 I'm not sure what you're talking about the recent paper from 2013.
10:39:39 Oh, the one that I mentioned in the beginning, is that was the experimental setup, it's probably more of a footnote than a than a podcast is called how current current loops and solenoids curb spaced on.
10:39:51 And that's the experiment where he set up to superconducting magnets in anti handholds configuration where they're in opposition. And then bounces a laser beam between the two of them.
10:40:05 Because the distance should be in general relativity terms should be.
10:40:13 I believe shortened in that would put the photons out of phase every time. As they spent more time in there the problem that I see with that experiment is how he would is that you would need that the photons to bounce back and forth along the axis, where
10:40:29 these two magnets are in opposition, for something like six months. Well, how do you get a laser beam to bounce back off of two mirrors for six months without dissipating.
10:40:39 That's a good question. I mean, is there really 100% efficient mirror, no problem. Unlikely, let's see the other thing that we wanted to talk about, or that I wanted to talk about was.