Tuesday, March 14, 2017

Virtual Graviational Dipoles

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Recorded: 2016/11/26 Published: 2017/02/14

Randy discusses what the Cosmological implications of a negative gravitational mass would be with Jim. If there were a negative gravitational mass (as opposed to inertial mass), then every time that an electron-positron pair was created in the vacuum, that would create a gravitational dipole. This in turn would create effects similar to dark matter, dark energy, and a cosmological constant -- and this in turn would have an effect on the origin of the universe.


Virtual Gravitational Dipoles: The Key for the Understanding of the Universe? by Dragan Hajducovic. The paper we discuss in the podcast.

The reddit.

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Transcript (Rough Draft; added 2020/07/15)
07:26:40 All right. Well then, let's get this started in the traditional map. Yeah, we're ready to rock. 07:26:45 All right, I guess this week on physics frontiers we're going to be talking about one of my favorite theoretical physics rock stars, a certain theoretical physicist named dragon. 07:26:57 I'm sorry dragon. 07:26:59 It looks like it's spelled dragon but it's dragon a dragon has Djokovic. 07:27:05 He's a physicist from Montenegro, and he has an amazing idea that defies a lot of our common sense notions of matter and gravity. But explains a huge range of current cosmological conundrums his idea. 07:27:26 Be, I guess, How I see if I can say this differently. 07:27:32 Dr hack Duke. Dr Hodge Duke of it because idea appears to explain. Dark Matter, dark energy. The unresolved cosmic inflation mechanism of the Big Bang, using a single postulate that antimatter falls up in a gravitational field. 07:27:52 So in any case, the idea is that if if matter has a positive gravitational charge. And anti-matter has a negative gravitational charge, then the quantum vacuum fluctuations that we know and love, which not which we're used to, because I believe quantum 07:28:09 electrodynamics depends on this idea is that there's a sea of virtual particles, and every cubic centimeter of space. You've got virtual photon pairs, appearing and then disappearing positron electron pairs, appearing and self annihilating, and even heavier 07:28:28 particles if I understand properly, like protons and anti-proton pairs, appearing and annihilating simultaneously, and has Duke avec is saying that. Another aspect of the quantum vacuum fluctuations, is a pair of gravitational charges gravitational dipole 07:28:47 that are constantly bubbling up into existence and then annihilating each other. 07:28:52 that are constantly bubbling up into existence and then annihilating each other. Now, the whole point of this is the idea that anti-matter may have an negative gravitational chart would still have a positive inertial mass, but the gravitational charge 07:29:03 would have the opposite side. Or at least that's that's the idea. And then you already have this idea about the quantum vacuum fluctuation right from QED I think, and others in the standard model, the standard model you have these vacuum fluctuations 07:29:17 which are basically short lived pairs of articles matter plus anti-matter that last for 10 to the minus 22 seconds or something like that. 07:29:26 You know they already have an electric dipole right if you have a positron and electron you have a positive and negative electric charge already, and then according to this you do the same thing with the mass. 07:29:38 This makes some sense at least if you're thinking about some sort of conservation of mass, for example, I don't think that's a really good argument for it I think that's just a reason why you might think it would occur. 07:29:49 So, the idea is that you simultaneously have dive holes. These gravitational dies, you create these two things. 07:29:58 They're, they're pretty close to each other for short time. Pretty close means around the order of the company wavelength or less, and then they fall back into each other, destroy each other and have a nice day. 07:30:09 And this will be happening all the time going up the vacuum, with the shortlist virtual parents. 07:30:18 And that's how you end up with your gravitational dive. 07:30:23 Yes, he's just saying that let's add on to in addition to the current laundry list of virtual particles popping into and out of existence constantly. 07:30:33 What's that gravitational pulls to the mix and see what happens. And well he's not adding anything in all he's doing is saying, the consequence of the hypothesis that antimatter has a negative gravitational charge is that you have these gravitational 07:30:50 diaper. Okay. There are associated with those particles there nothing new. 07:30:54 It's just, this is what would happen if and say particles have a negative mass, which is an open question. 07:31:02 That's right there and there's some experiments underway right now at the Large Hadron Collider in Switzerland and France, that we'll find out soon. Bye, they think is early as 2018. 07:31:13 The Alpha experiment, and there's also two others ages and G bar, which are competing to measure the influence of gravity on antimatter and alpha is going to do it by creating anti hydrogen atoms to dance I proton with the positron orbiting it, and then 07:31:31 cooling them down so that they're moving slowly enough that they can measure to see if they drop or rise in a gravitational field that any other influences. 07:31:42 Okay, and so soon we're going to find out if there's any basis in fact to this but this is a big What if paper. That's right. So he took the Vic is saying that. 07:31:56 If this is true, what's actually going to happen what is that going to mean, and he gets some really nice things out of it. Is there anything else at the beginning of that you think needs to be said, Well, I think that we should talk about a little bit 07:32:07 about the fact that we know that the quantum vacuum fluctuations are real, because we've got the QED model, basically, as I understand it defines the field, as the interaction of the virtual particles with charge, and so forth. 07:32:23 So the field the magnetic fields that we know the electrical fields that we know are all manifestations of this interaction with the vacuum. And then there's an even more direct measurement using the Casimir effect where you can actually place two mirrors 07:32:36 two uncharged mirrors very close to each other. And there's a pressure differential that pushes those mirrors closer together. And it's exactly the strength that we would expect. 07:32:47 If the virtual particles were actually physically real. 07:32:51 Okay, so I just wanted to go in to that a little bit and just to just describe that the vacuum fluctuation is do appear to be a real physical phenomenon. 07:32:59 And so if you, if you add in the additional association of gravitational dipole to this, then we can move forward with his predictions which are astonishing. 07:33:11 Okay, well, that's pretty good to start with, you want to move on to some of the specific cases, so he has. What was it, five separate cases or six cases I think 12345 cases that he was looking at five, or five implications that he was looking at that 07:33:29 I think we might want to talk about, well let's first. Let's first give the name of the papers that everybody can keep up with those if you want to check it out as we go through this. 07:33:38 The, the name of the paper that we're looking at right now is his 2014 paper called Virtual gravitational disciples. 07:33:51 The key for the understanding of the universe, or with a question mark, I should say. And then I'd also like to mention that there's a 2015 PowerPoint presentation online called, what if quantum vacuum fluctuations are virtual gravitation will die poles. 07:34:02 And there is also a little segment where he's interviewed in a BBC production, called Project green glow. The quest for gravity control, which I checked out this morning it was kind of fun. 07:34:16 So, the consequences of his Fs postulate. 07:34:20 You wanted to start with the cyclical universe model that's interesting let's start there. The whole point of this is that we start off, you know, we were just talking about these quantum vacuum fluctuation was right. 07:34:31 We're talking about pair production. And that's basically what we think created matter in the universe. 07:34:37 We only have one kind of issue with that, that issue is that creation would create equal amounts of matter and antimatter. That's right. They call this the barrier Genesis problem, and somehow we just have this problem where we don't see a lot of anti 07:34:50 matter running around, which is good for us, because if there was a lot of anti matter around it probably wouldn't be in US running around, but the theory says, and everything looks like it should be symmetric, but according to Duke of it, there should 07:35:05 be some sort of issue with. So, how does that work well in all of the lab experiments and all the phenomena that we see a nature like a showing our mechanism. 07:35:17 When particles are created, they're always created in pairs. 07:35:20 You've got your particle and your antiparticle. There is only. I think one case, in the standard model, where there is some kind of asymmetry in that and it's an extremely rare phenomenon I believe in involving the chaos, is that right. 07:35:36 That is correct. 07:35:38 And that mechanism isn't frequent or strong enough to account for the enormous abundance of matter that we see in the universe. And so we're stuck wondering well where would the where's the anti matter, and it first. 07:35:57 The theory is that there may be maybe there are entire galaxies, composed of antimatter because anti-matter would react with itself, just like matter, interacts with itself, and the light and the spectroscopy, we wouldn't know the difference. 07:36:08 But it doesn't appear that we see the annihilation events that we'd expect in the universe where matter and antimatter come together because it creates a very easily identifiable signature of gamma rays, and we don't see these big gamma ray bursts whenever, 07:36:22 say, a rogue planet or star goes flying into an antimatter galaxy and annihilate. 07:36:30 So, Another physicist in Italian physicist I believe his name is a lot of postulated that well maybe anti-matter repels other forms of anti rather anti matter and creates these diffuse regions in the voids between galaxies, and maybe those are filled 07:36:48 with anti-matter. 07:36:49 But again, we've got terrific experiment. 07:36:53 I believe it's the alpha to experiment in orbit right now. 07:36:57 What does that mean, let's say that satellite is detecting particles in orbit around the Earth right now. No, I have no idea. I'll have to look that up. 07:37:07 It's not important, but we're looking for this. We've been looking for antimatter and we were not seeing are not seeing the kind of anti malware that we'd expect. 07:37:15 We're not seeing anti hydrogen. We're not seeing anti-matter cosmic rays. 07:37:21 At least not in the, in the form that we'd need to Sweden, we'd expect if there was a bunch of anti-matter out there. And so, cosmologists have been stumped by this, how can we explain this abundance of matter in the universe, and how Djokovic is saying, 07:37:37 Well, actually, it could be that this universe is dominated by matter, and that it's going to go through a cyclical process where eventually the acceleration will slow down and come to a stop. 07:37:52 And it will re collapse. And in the collapsing of the universe and it reaches a very dense coalescence where the field gravitational field is extremely intense, that there's a showing or mechanism where all of the matter will be converted into anti-matter 07:38:13 and all of the anti-matter will be converted in the matter. So the next universe will have the opposite abundance of anti-matter over matter. So, over time, averages out to a conserved, Barry on number. 07:38:27 So you're saying he thinks that there's some over time. I mean what I recall, was he was talking about, like a black hole. Right. 07:38:37 And the black hole, sort of starts collapsing in on it, and eventually gets to the point where if there's anti-matter in that region. It just tries to go away from that region. 07:38:46 And so all the anti-matter gets pushed out from this sort of Big Crunch event for example for for the or it gets pushed out from the collapsing black hole and the same thing would happen with the Big Crunch. 07:38:57 So while the matter was all coalescing you'd get this spray out of all of this anti-matter that was being created through the vacuum fluctuations because in that actual position. 07:39:16 The gravitational field is so strong that it can actually tear these virtual died poles apart and turn them into real particles. That's right, except he, he, his theory eliminates the, the singularity of the big bad. 07:39:25 Well, I mean, that is a consequence and that's, that's one of the nice things about his theory is that this is a consequences that you no longer end up with the Big Bang. 07:39:33 Really you don't end up with a big crunch and a big bang, what you do is you get everything coming together. And then you have things coming out you no longer have the need for something that doesn't quite make sense, like a cosmic inflation model, which 07:39:46 is what we're stuck with right now. That's right right now. He's replacing the Big Bang I guess with a big bounce right because everything will get down to this extremely dense state, and then the gravitational repulsion will be so strong that it'll bounce 07:40:01 outward again. And then it'll keep doing this over and over again and who knows how long this has been going on. I was wondering if maybe the imbalance between the matter and antimatter maybe that's a result of this, that chaos process, adding up over 07:40:20 successive generations of universes, you know, maybe, I don't know where, like, Where did the, the imbalance come from in the first place. Yeah, that's the major issue with this is that in the paper always says, Well, if the last universe was an antimatter 07:40:33 universe in this universe is a matter universe and the next universe would be another entity matter universe, but it doesn't say how it starts up or anything like that so it becomes an explanation but it becomes one of these explanations pushes everything 07:40:46 back to look just a little bit farther, but it makes life a little nicer because you end up getting rid of things like singularities, which apparently this does over and over. 07:40:57 You know, but it's interesting to think about that, we do have this one phenomenon in the standard model that is not perfectly symmetric. And I wonder how many iterations of, I wonder if we could predict how many iterations of the universe to have to 07:41:11 have been further to build up this imbalance of matter and antimatter over time. You see what I'm saying. Yeah, you can think about something like that but I'm not sure how well I mean I think we need to think about that and a lot more detail. 07:41:25 more detail than I understand it. Yo me. Me too I think that it would be really hard to. But although not necessarily impossible to calculate what the conditions are would really be like in this super dense. 07:41:41 Big bounce kind of moment with each universal, you know, re, re expansion to try to do a mathematical prediction on how to how, how much power production would be associated with the chaos and what kind of imbalance you get over time. 07:41:59 So, let's see. 07:42:01 He gets he does cover the math pretty, pretty thoroughly on here, he doesn't do a lot of extensive derivations but in. He's been publishing papers about this idea since about 2011 and there's a series of papers about it. 07:42:15 And I think that, and different papers he covers different aspects of the idea. And this looks more like a summary of his findings. Yeah, I mean he talks a little bit about this stuff but I think the most interesting thing that I saw in there was the 07:42:28 whole there being particular shells inside of like that black hole, that would be radiating out these different things so there'd be like an electron positron show will be shooting out electronics, for example, and then there'd be a neutron shell, that 07:42:42 would be shooting out neutron or whatever. I think it was new crop made that was neutrinos, and the radio are different by fast for 43, so I mean it's fairly interesting to me but I mean you'd end up getting a spray electrons, right at the beginning well 07:43:03 I wonder how that I wonder how to explain, I didn't see that part where does he talk about how it explains the margin at the universe now. 07:43:11 Like how do they remix, they had such a, such a head start on each other well these guys wouldn't remix. Right. Well I mean the electrons would have to bond the protons later on. 07:43:22 Right. Well, they would sometimes yeah I mean and they would if you know they're really matter, and they're just wander around doing it whatever random things that they're doing. 07:43:31 The question just becomes, you know when they're going to do that. So, been a long time since people were trying to make anti anti hydrogen in the lab just to prove you could make that but you know these things will happen, you got billions of years to 07:43:44 make it happen. More than billions of years to make it happen. But yeah, and you'd have to explain the timeframe, and the cosmic microwave background radiation. 07:43:54 I guess a lot of these things be, you'd have to figure out how to do what he wouldn't have to do it. So right now, this is a fringe theory and it's a French theory because it has a really really strong. 07:44:09 reason to believe. And so you there's not a lot of work being done on what would the cosmic microwave background radiation be how can I make this fit every single thing that actually has been measured in the sky. 07:44:22 Right. 07:44:23 But if they do find, they do find there is a negative mass to this, and I had written they were talking about, then all of a sudden, there'll be lots of people for account exactly those sorts of issues. 07:44:34 Well, let's be careful that we were using the term negative mass because I think people are going to think that means negative inertial mass and that's a whole other theory, which Robert forward talked about, and Martin timer. 07:44:55 in Europe has been looking into. We're just talking about gravitational charge, positive and negative right. But the thing that I that I find really compelling and. 07:44:58 And I can see where a theoretical physicist would be intrigued by this and I think rightfully is that this one idea, you can explain and he shows the calculations to be within error bars on dark matter, dark energy, right. 07:45:14 The two biggest cosmological mysteries that we're up against right now. And I think when you've got one idea that can explain both of those. 07:45:24 Then you've got something that which really deserves a close look, because right now with dark matter. 07:45:29 We've extensively got 10 times as much dark matter in our galaxy and in countless other galaxies throughout the universe that and we've never detected a single particle to explain what this, what it is. 07:45:42 And we're looking really hard, and then dark energy, dark energy we seem to be stuck with a completely intractable model of negative pressure in the quantum vacuum, which I've yet to see a satisfactory explanation for and plus this theory abolishes the 07:45:59 inflate on the hypothetical particle that would have driven the Big Bang expansion in the first instance of expansion of the universe so that's pretty impressive set of predictions to make from one hypothesis. 07:46:14 And if he's right and the math holds up and the order of magnitude estimate city has here for the cosmic acceleration and dark matter, then there may be some kind of truth in it. 07:46:27 Well, if he's right. It's hard really to say I don't know how much traction this really gets it doesn't look like it's something that's getting a lot of citations. 07:46:36 You know this isn't stuff that he's publishing and in Physical Review a or anything like that. So it looks like something that people have a lot of issues with somewhere. 07:46:45 Do you know what those are us what I was kind of kind of hoping to face with those are. Yeah, I have no idea what those are, because I've never heard of this before you sent this to me and and I had a couple of days to read it and just figure out what 07:46:58 the guys doing, let alone try to figure out things about it and I wouldn't do that much work trying to figure that out either. 07:47:06 If he's been talking about it since 2011 It could just be because nobody's heard about it because he doesn't he doesn't talk about it, to the right people. 07:47:15 Well I've seen articles on fish. org and, And, and I saw him interviewed at Large Hadron Collider and he was talking with the guys working on the alpha experiment. 07:47:26 So, these yeah it seems like people on the experimental side, at least as far as trying to measure the, what happens with anti hydrogen new gravitational field, you know you got three different teams working on that right now and they seem to know his 07:47:40 work and. 07:47:52 And it's sort of, they seem to see it as a kind of lightning rod for their efforts, because there's a, that would be the most exciting outcome right is the thing that people expect least. And I've seen objections online of science sports. 07:47:58 People denying the idea that anti-matter could have a negative gravitational charge. But when you really look at them, and I hope we can do some of that tonight. 07:48:08 There really aren't any convincing arguments that against it. I think that it may just be one of these, the momentum of science culture things. I mean we're so used to thinking that positive inertia equals positive gravitation period that, because that's 07:48:25 what Einstein's theory said, but of course I don't think Einstein was even aware of that we weren't even aware of antimatter at the time that general relativity was created right. 07:48:35 No, I wouldn't think so. And we really didn't have any reason to think about it until well yeah definitely not so anti-matter actually was a sort of weird theoretical discovery, because it shows up in the direct equation, the positron shows up in the 07:48:41 Drake Equation just for no particular purpose, so it was a theoretical curiosity, just like this negative gravitational charge would be right because there was no reason to suppose it exists, except that it showed up in the first attempt at a relativistic 07:49:06 theories of quantum mechanics. 07:49:08 And then later on people found the positive promise. Yeah, yeah, that was like 1928 that we got our first indication of the positron I think so, that was so well. 07:49:21 What a decade decade and a half after general relativity was introduced. Yeah, 12, people I think are fairly open to the idea that there might be a negative mass for antiparticle, I just don't think a lot of people will give it a lot of weight because 07:49:33 there's again no positive reason to say it exists. So I mean, there have been people trying to do these experiments for years and I don't think anybody's been particularly upset about people trying to do these experiments I think doing experiments to 07:49:47 find out if something like this is actually true or good I think everybody believes we want to test, especially things that we think are most reliable, but we don't have any real evidence for, for example, but there is no such thing as negative gravitational 07:50:01 chart. You know, we believe that there's absolutely no reason to believe that's true, other than we've seen absolutely no evidence. So finding some way to test that in any situation at all really is a really interesting but even if it turns out that the 07:50:17 world is as boring as we thought it was right because we really need to know for sure. So, let us know for sure. Just tell us about antiparticles in general but do you know that doesn't mean, in the long run will find some other way to make a negative 07:50:39 gravitational trunk. Right now the only thing that I think anybody has any hope have seen the negative gravitational charging is an anti matter. Yeah, although I did love the idea that we saw on our last talk with the gravitational dipole generator in 07:50:47 forwards paper guidelines to anti gravity paper, where he showed a device that could at least ostensibly by the linear equations of general relativity which told that there, you could generate a gravitational dipole. 07:50:59 So there seems like there's a really strong theoretical basis to believe that it's possible to see that effect one way or the other. If you can make something as complicated and weird and go fast enough. 07:51:13 In that particular, I guess it's not that weird but it's just a pretty complicated thing that popped for putting that paper, to try to build with some sort of mass for sure. 07:51:21 Sure, yeah and it's it's certainly going to be outside that kind of devices, looks to be what far beyond our capabilities in the foreseeable future. But I think it's a proof of principle concept in a theoretical way that hey, you know, if we could arrange 07:51:34 matter to do this and this way, then we would see this effect. Yeah, but that's still wouldn't be a negative gravitational charge that would be a dipole. 07:51:42 That would be literally it that would be literally a dipole. And that would still be a completely different thing. But that's all that we need for this theory because that's all he's talking about here is a virtual gravitational dipole. 07:51:53 That is completely unrelated to this. This particular theory, you need something much stronger than what Robert forward was talking about in this theory you need a negative gravitational charge on anti matter, that's a very strong statement competitive 07:52:10 interest between those two ideas should be very, very large, especially because even though, Robert for words device looks weird. It's something that we should expect should exist based on the analogy between electricity and gravity. 07:52:28 Right. On the other hand, the negative gravitational charge opens up something completely new. 07:52:43 And that's really exciting. If that's the case that's really exciting. Yeah, it seemed like when they brought it up in this BBC production, that would be kind of a watershed moment in that we, we would suddenly, I guess, have least some theoretical opportunity 07:52:50 to start exploring. 07:52:52 Negative gravitational effects technologically, and you know if you think about it, if you had a some kind of confinement machine that could suspend anti-matter in a vacuum. 07:53:03 So that it wouldn't touch the matter that contains it. 07:53:08 And if you had more of that anti-matter inside the device than the mass of the regular mass of the device with matter, this guy's theory is true, the freakin thing should be able to fall up, just as naturally as a body of matter falls down right. 07:53:22 Yeah, that would be a blimp that made the Hindenburg. Look, look like a date to be true. 07:53:28 Well yeah, you wouldn't want to see a failure of that system without annihilating the planet. 07:53:34 But have you just conceptually, Suddenly, we will be going from. Here's Robert forwards idea that you would need an unimaginable technology in order to do in several millennia. 07:53:46 And here's something that we could do at a very small scale on a lab that would show us effects that we've never seen before. So that was that's the kind of thing that we could see happen within our lifetimes. 07:53:56 Yeah, I mean, we probably would soon as I figure this out. 07:54:01 If they know they can do it will do a lot of engineering to improve their yield on the anti hydrogen, but I'm sure they're working on that now, but still get a lot more money to do that, then just imagine if we could make anti iron, right, then you could 07:54:12 just spend it in a super conductive cylinder right so that it would just be good magnetically suspend it, it'd be solid, right, it would be almost safe. 07:54:22 I'm sure people are right now thinking about how to create heavier and heavier elements heavier and heavier anti elements I guess they do. Right, right yeah we're saying we can't even use regular matter very well right now, and we're going to try to do 07:54:35 with anti-matter. Well, yeah, but I mean you know as soon as they can get some, that's the next thing. And usually you don't really need to do that with regular matter that many things you really want to do that with, except for things that don't last 07:54:48 very long to begin with, like, you all the Unknown, Unknown out there I believe there is an actual unobtainium. 07:54:57 Something like that. 07:55:04 On unobtainium or something or there are a bunch of names like that that are really placeholder names. Okay, so these are placeholder names, while chemists get together and argue about what they should name, the women's next few elements that's been discovered. 07:55:14 I mean, used to be the discoverer got the name, but now they've decided that this is not the right way to do things. You should have an International Committee, so that, you know, the next, the next element I think will be plutonium. 07:55:29 And there'll be a Trump Ian pretty soon I'm sure it's going to be the greatest, the greatest data member. 07:55:38 Well I'm glad you brought that up because I hadn't even really, I'm so excited about the theoretical prospects for this guy's idea. I hadn't even really seriously consider what the technological and patients would be, because it's just such, we're just 07:55:53 cosmological we were banging our heads against the dark matter and dark energy and the inflation problem and barrier Genesis and all this stuff it to see one idea that could neatly wrapped them all up and tie them off with a bow, just it's just his work 07:56:08 is riveted me for years, because there's just nothing else like it i i scour these fringe theoretical papers, night and day for years on end, looking for ideas like this that could tie together and resolve some of the biggest mysteries in a really elegant 07:56:25 way. And although it's an unpopular idea on the science sports, you know, I'm glad that you've got a more broad mind about this kind of thing because you go into the chat boards and you get shredded if you mentioned the idea. 07:56:40 Any idea like this that oh maybe anti-matter has a negative gravitational charge. I mean, people will tear you apart they don't want to hear it. Yeah, but why are you on the chat board. 07:56:49 Well, just a lot of times you'll be, you'll be like reading an article and then there's a comment section. 07:56:55 You know, And so you'll read an interesting article and you'll have something relevant like to say about it that might tie in an idea to something else that you think people might find interesting. 07:57:05 And you know once in a while there's somebody who's like, oh cool I'll look into that but most of the time, and it's usually you know the members who have been there for years on end and have like a street cred to defend who will come at you like a frickin 07:57:18 Dobermans, if that's where you want to play. Right. 07:57:23 I don't I don't play there too much anymore I learned I learned my lesson. That's exactly what's going to happen I mean that's that's one the internet and to, you know, the message boards tend to get a little bit worse, especially if they're not really 07:57:36 really well and unless they're really really moderated but even in a place like this, it sounds like they're probably even attacking you in ways that wouldn't get them tick off the moderator. 07:57:49 I don't know, maybe they are attacking you will get you kicked off but you know they can be pretty vicious. Yeah, and still be perfectly within parameters for something like that. 07:57:59 I guess we've already talked about this, this, this idea of his gets rid of I said five. Five things but there are four things here and, and the fifth is just something that we have to understand to make two of them work. 07:58:11 There are four things that I really really liked about the implications of the steering. 07:58:16 The first one was that cyclic universe I like the way that worked out though, I have no idea if it's right or not but it looks very nice and it gets rid of the singularity anytime you get rid of the singularity, I'm with you. 07:58:28 The next one was it gets rid of, sort of the cosmological constant problem, because cosmological constant feels to me like Watson right yeah you know it's just, it's the soup, that's out there that has no particular reason to be there and doesn't even 07:58:43 have a real existence, it's just this weird negative pressure constant density fluid that we don't get to detect except that somehow it makes the math. 07:58:53 I want to point out that it would be the one thing in nature, I think that we've seen so far, that doesn't come from or have any direct relation to matter, like the matter if the universe is irrelevant in that model in the current dark energy model. 07:59:07 It's just a negative pressure in space time and that's it. But almost everywhere else we see that, you know, it's a product of the existence of matter, interacting with each other through some mechanism. 07:59:19 Yeah. So, as far as I can see that this is able to get rid of it right by saying that instead of having this indefinable soup we have this definable suit of, you know, this quick creation and annihilation of disciples, because, because you get that fluctuation. 07:59:33 I mean, it may sound like a little thing to some people but it's, it's actually a meaningful idea about why we have this whole cosmological constant thing, rather than the silly soup idea, and that he was able to get it within the realm of, I can't remember 07:59:51 exactly how close his prediction mathematically was to the actual observations we've seen, but they they line up pretty damn well yeah I think that was the one where he said you know the number was between one and two and his back the envelope calculation 08:00:06 was 1.5 so experiments in one or two times whatever. 08:00:12 And he got 1.5 I think that was that one. Yeah, but a similar thing came up with the dark matter of calculations that he did, Yes, he was pretty close there too. 08:00:22 Yeah, yeah, he was close in the dark matter and so yeah and the dark matter and dark energy, were the other two things that I liked him getting rid of those with just this thing again, you have to understand one more weird thing about this theory, which 08:00:50 is that there ends up being a gravitational polarization of the bathroom. So, I mean a polarization is polarization is a field. So normally when we think about polarization we're thinking about a light beam and we're saying okay the light beam is polarized 08:00:52 and you know it's this way or that way. But what he's talking about when he says polarization is a completely different thing. 08:00:58 It's like the polarization of a material right it's like a pope the polarization of a dielectric material. And what happens in the dielectric material is that when you put a material inside of a electric field. 08:01:13 Well the atoms are made up of a positive partner negative. And they align yeah yeah the positive part wants to go with the field the negative part wants to go away from it. 08:01:23 So you get this sort of net displacement of the nucleus, to the electron cloud. 08:01:29 And you end up with dipole dipole. At that point, is what creates the polarization. So, so what you say is okay if I look at a larger group of these things, you know I end up with a look at a region that I can say this has a polarization that I can add 08:01:46 on to my field in direction because it creates sort of an extra field right there. And then if you add all that up for your entire material, you get your dipole moment for the material. 08:02:00 But these little polarization vectors that are all over the material, you know they're in all sorts of different directions so they cancel a little bit here the castle little bit there but if it's in a field, it has a polarization. 08:02:11 You can look at this microscopically on the inside of the material, and you see that there are little fluctuations all over the place for what direction the polarization is in, even though, has a net moment in one direction. 08:02:25 It's always different just a little bit. 08:02:28 And that's what he's saying happened to space, only with gravity, but it also must happen with electric charge as well because, you know, the things that are popping into and out of existence that are creating these cycles are also charged or mostly charge, 08:02:44 Oh yeah, I hadn't thought about that the fact that the same, the same virtual particles that create gravitational disciples in this theory also usually have a good electrical charge as well except for the photons. 08:02:56 So those are those are married together. 08:02:59 I wonder if that gives us an opportunity, and other like theoretical opportunity to use some kind of electromagnetic technology and in order to harness this polarization effect gravitationally yeah you might be able to force the gravitational polarization 08:03:15 using an electric field. Well that's really exciting. 08:03:19 I hadn't even thought about that. 08:03:21 Yeah, I was a little bit confused because it wasn't as clear in the PowerPoint that I was looking at today that the gravitational dipole CDs talking about where the product of the particles themselves the you know the electrons and positrons and the and 08:03:36 the protons and the anti protons, when we, when we look at the virtual particles in the vacuum, as I understand it, and let me clear me up if I'm wrong about this, but the heavier particles. 08:03:49 There's something like a proton anti-proton pair to those exists, less frequently in the quantum vacuum, or do they just exist for a smaller interval of time because seem to remember there was something there was a relationship between their mass and 08:04:04 their longevity in, and their momentum and things like that, the different amount of time that's inversely proportional to their energy. So, heavier ones, last for a shorter amount of time. 08:04:16 I'm not sure about the actual process but in most things when you're creating something, it requires exponentially less probable to create something normally that that has a higher energy, does that mean that the heavier ones occur, less frequently, I 08:04:32 would expect that they would both occur less frequently, and they would disappear more quickly. They would annihilate. 08:04:42 But the first one I'm not completely sure about just the way most things work in physics. 08:04:49 They would be produced less, but I don't have any particular knowledge about that. In this particular case, so I could be completely off. 08:04:58 But the second part I'm, I'm really sure. The second part I'm sure it would be fun to maybe we can do a program sometime about the quantum vacuum, because I'd like to study it more carefully and maybe we could get some into the nitty gritty of that because 08:05:12 it's it's a fascinating subject. Yeah it is. It is really interesting read about it. Let's see I guess one of the things I wanted to make sure we went over where the, where the objections there. 08:05:26 There's some possible evidence against the, the hypothesis that he's, he's posited here. 08:05:33 There's one example that, that, that I could probably the most compelling example that I could find was the observations in 1987, when the supernova a 1987 a exploded smear 167,000 light years away and large measure Magellanic Cloud. 08:05:55 We. 08:05:55 I think we observed the photons, and are in three different neutrino detectors on the earth detected the arrival of neutrinos simultaneously. And this is, this is cited as evidence that the neutrinos must have followed the same gravitational path is the 08:06:10 photons to arrive at the same time, but it also seems that our detectors can't distinguish between the interaction of anti-neutrinos in neutrinos, at least not very well, so they don't know if they were neutrinos or anti-neutrinos or both. 08:06:29 Now, in this in the Duke of x theory I imagine that neutrinos would be mass particles and so they'd follow the normal gravitational curve, just like photons would and anti-neutrinos that guess would be repelled by gravitational field so they take a different 08:06:44 path. 08:06:46 But, uh, but if the anti-neutrinos took a different path, then maybe all we detected was the neutrinos, and they said there was an estimate of like one to 10% chance that we only detected neutrinos and no anti anti-neutrinos I'm not sure how they do that 08:07:00 math, you know, especially in light of the, the idea that if Matt anti-neutrinos took a different path than maybe, maybe they would have been detected later or maybe they maybe that signal could have been lost against the cosmic background I'm not really 08:07:14 sure. 08:07:16 But that was the strongest experimental case that I could find and it seems like there's still a lot of questions about it. 08:07:21 One of the questions is, is the neutrino itself seems to be kind of a mysterious particle. It seems like we haven't quite figured out yet. If those are direct for romance, or margarine margarine of fermion and. 08:07:37 And if they're margarine fermion. Then there is the only thing that's different between the matter and antimatter version. I guess in a, in a similar way that photons of their own antiparticle Well, yeah, well I mean well they have an anti nuclear, I 08:07:54 think the. There's a lot that they don't know about neutrinos they do talk about these oscillations with the fields between the different the different levels of nicotine or whatever they are, but I mean if they were arriving at the same time with 1987 08:08:21 at least some proportion of them in whatever distance that was I'm not sure how far away was 1987. That was 100 I think 167,000 light years it was in the large mental attic cloud. Then if if these are showing up at that time given the, the material detectors 08:08:37 That makes massive, they have to slow down to less than the speed of what and so we would not see them at the same time, okay. That's okay. That's right, that's right, they'd be seriously delayed if they slowed down at all, because that's a huge interval. 08:08:44 Yeah, but the but the other thing is that it seems like every time we've measured neutrinos velocity the neutrino velocity said it's always been singing. 08:08:51 Yeah, like I don't think I've seen a measurement yet where they didn't travel it See, and that that just raises the whole question, how can they travel at the constancy just like light, it's still have a rest mass. 08:09:03 So right now, they think that at least one of those neutrino bits, and then the free lacerations has the men. Okay. That doesn't mean that all of them. 08:09:13 Oh, weird. The other two could still have no response that could include your electronic cleaner right, which would be your most common one. 08:09:24 So I guess in our lab experiments were not able to make the massive con song, or they don't have time to oscillate maybe between the limiter and the detector. 08:09:34 Yeah, you've done all sorts of issues they but yeah they wouldn't have time to ask me on a terrestrial experiment I don't think I'm not sure how well they create them but I don't think they'd have time to ask wait on top of being difficult to detect all 08:09:46 those other things, so they don't get that mass from terrestrial experiments they get them from the wheel oscillations, like the sun, right, because I think it was the missing, there was the missing missing neutrino problem back in the day, and they figured 08:09:58 that out because there was enough time from the oscillate between the Sun and the Earth, that if like a third of them became a different kind that we weren't detecting Is that right, I really know enough about it well so that so that seems like there's 08:10:09 so many questions about neutrinos and anti-neutrinos and oscillations and all that kind of businesses seems like that's pretty weak experimental evidence to refute the idea that antimatter would have a negative gravitational charge right and so the only 08:10:25 other thing that the other argument that I've seen is the theoretical one, which we've kind of talked about already, which is, you know, the general principle. 08:10:33 The general theory of general relativity and the week equivalents principle, where we assume that positive inertia equals positive gravitational charge. 08:10:43 But again, We can't be sure. 08:10:46 Right. I mean, until we have some kind of experimental evidence. We can't say that because the theory says that it must be true because theories evolve. 08:10:54 Yeah, that's not really a good argument at all. Are there any, are there any good arguments that you can think of that are like, well, this could be a showstopper. 08:11:03 Well if you'd like to. 08:11:06 There is a review article that he mentions here as well as the original article from physics reports, the arguments against anti gravity and the gravitational acceleration of anti-matter by Nieto and Goldman, I guess it's maybe it's Neato but it's an 08:11:21 iEq, and the ordinance of the he gives against antigravity are trying to show that anti gravity is somehow incompatible with the current with the conservation of energy. 08:11:34 And this is a technical argument. Another one is that different materials should contain different fractions of the virtual anti-matter so if it falls up, it should already have been detected by classical tests of the weekend equivalents principle that 08:11:48 one spaceship, who is a guy who's big in gr. And then there was one that was based on CTV violation that would say that there would be a very large charge parody violation. 08:12:10 Okay, off to look at these. I'm intrigued by ships argument because I've never heard that before that, that this phenomenal would lead to a violation of the week equivalents principle and laboratory experiments. 08:12:20 But do you understand that that ship argument. Not at all. 08:12:24 That's all right. All I could do it I like having more reading to do, because then you know where to look, you know, in order to see the disproves in the lab. 08:12:32 Okay, well. 08:12:34 We did a prediction that there's going to be a gravitational repulsion between matter and I met right so then you've got the guy on the other hand of the argument where he's saying that he would predict this effect. 08:12:59 be gravitational repulsive in inverse time. I like a lot. He's got a number of articles online but I think he was he was his idea that he thinks that anti that there's an equal amount of anti-matter in the universe but he's the one who thinks that it 08:13:20 exists in these large intergalactic voice actually like the discussion here about some of these gravitational charges or the gravitational charged density, and stuff. 08:13:36 But yeah, I don't know anything about antimatter in the cosmic voice. I don't know what it would look like I, I kind of suspected if it was there, there's enough going on, enough random things going on that you would see traces of it. 08:13:45 Yeah, you'd see those annihilation signals coming out of those voids right it's a piece of rock or something flew in there and blew apart. Yeah, that's what that's what I think what one. 08:13:56 Yeah, yeah, I guess if we won't know until we see it. I mean, I have no idea how often giant pieces of galaxies decided to fly off into the void two things, but you think would happen right because then stuff, blowing up all the time you got supernovas. 08:14:11 and things. Yeah, I'd expect it, but I have no idea what really happens in those events. I think I remember the name of that satellite or we think it was the Alpha Magnetic Spectrometer to that's in orbit right now and one of its missions is to look for 08:14:25 antimatter and the Nope, brilliant Nobel laureate who designed the thing, said that if we can detect just one atom of anti helium. 08:14:37 Then we've got proof that there's a anti-matter stars out there. And so we when we've got some indication that there may be entire galaxy is made out of anti matter. 08:14:47 are gravitationally repulsive, then maybe an antimatter galaxy would push away all of the incoming matter, so that it wouldn't actually penetrated. 08:15:02 Maybe after enough time anyway yeah i mean you know if you have. 08:15:08 If you do have large regions of anti-matter in between the galaxies that would definitely. And if the anti matter has. 08:15:34 And if the anti matter proposed matter, then that would keep everything inside of this silly galaxy thing. 08:15:28 Keep the anti-matter from getting into the galaxies. So you. 08:15:33 So you wouldn't get too many interesting events. 08:15:36 But then you probably should get some fairly large concentrations of it as well. 08:15:42 That's right, but unless it interacts with something you want to be able to detect it from looking at it, because I understand it, oh well yeah but you might end up back with anti-matter galaxy. 08:15:50 That's right. That's right. Maybe there wouldn't be enough of gravitational thing to do that but you think that if you have big things pushing you away from them towards things that you want to be attracted to. 08:16:02 Pretty soon you'd end up with bigger combinations of stuff. And then now you have all these things that we could actually. 08:16:08 Yeah. And we can see back, how many billions of light years into the universe and we were not seeing these gamma events, you know, just using isolation events anywhere. 08:16:18 Well, I really love a high Duke of x work and I'm glad that you found it interesting. It was fun reading this and it's something that I think I can cost me with on the street. 08:16:30 Will Be careful, don't cost any sides for people on the street because they'll have your head. 08:16:42 Oh yeah, I forget about that everybody's a big dog when they're using an anonymous avatar. 08:16:58 All right, Jen thanks for going over this with you today and, and it's good to learn some things about these about these arguments and look at them from a fresh perspective. And I'm glad we got to share that with our audience. I bet they're as excited as we are, somebody out there is I can feel 08:17:04 it. 08:17:06 I know all 10 of them and I know that they're saying, 08:17:10 Let's wrap this up and get to the beer Alright, sounds good. I think I'm gonna get myself one right now. All right. ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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