Thursday, January 26, 2017

Pilot Wave Hydrodynamics

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Recoded: 2016/11/20 Published: 2017/01/20

In this episode, Randy and Jim discuss pilot wave hydrodynamics, a physical analogy to quantum mechanics. In it, a small droplet bounces atop a fluid, interacting with its own wave. This allows macroscopic experiments which display many of the properties of quantum mechanics, such as self-interference in a doubles slit experiment. This is equivalent to the de Broglie-Bohm interpretation of quantum mechanics that Jim and Randy talked about in the second episode and a little in the main podcast, as well as the quantum interpretations special (that currently needs re-editing).

Show Notes:

1. The review paper by John W. M. Bush that forms the basis of the discussion.

2. The videos by Veritasium and Smarter Every Day that we refer to in the podcast second episode and just before we recorded this.

3. Both John Bush and Anders Andersen seem to have found no evidence of interference in properly controlled experiments, as described inQuanta Magazine.

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Transcript (Rough Draft; Added 2020/07/06)
10:16:26 This week's episode of physics frontiers, we're going to talk about pilot way of hydro dynamics, okay so pilot wave hydrodynamic, this is something that has to do with this broken a bone interpretation of quantum mechanics right this is not interesting 10:16:40 just because of whatever it is this pilot wave thing. That's right We brought this up. We mentioned at one time in our to Berkeley bone deploy the bone pilot wave interpretation of quantum mechanics, and it's a fascinating experiment, and it's shed a 10:16:55 lot of light, I think, on a possible new model, a new interpretation of quantum mechanics just by being a macroscopic phenomenon, it's really kind of fun to watch and very tempting by the way to have around the house to show your friends, so we decided 10:17:10 that we were going to dedicate an episode to just these wonderful oil drop experiments that emulate quantum mechanical behavior in a way that is nobody had anticipated is being possible until you've called coup de, and the manual for it came up with it 10:17:26 it in round 2006, what are the properties of this hydrodynamic wave that make it look like quantum mechanics. Well let's first talk about a description of what the experiments entail well yeah that's what I'd like to know so what is it about these pilot 10:17:40 waves that is actually doing something that acts like quantum mechanics. Well, the wonderful thing about the oil drop experiments and if you've seen the video and I guess we'll have a link maybe on our blog so that you can see these is if you agitate, 10:17:53 a bath of oil, and you drop the little beads of a little droplets of oil on top of that vibrating oil bath. When they bounce they create waves and the particle interacts with its own waves from its impacts with the oil, and that creates a whole new range 10:18:11 of behaviors that we've never seen before in classical mechanics, things like being able to emulate the double slit experiment. We're using a single particle, going through the double slit experiment and creating an interference pattern on the other end. 10:18:27 So it's this interaction between the self generated waves on the surface of the oil and the droplet that creates these, these behaviors. And it turns out that you can extend this pretty significantly to create all kinds of wonderful behaviors that we 10:18:45 had only thought existed in the realm of quantum mechanics, until this experiments came out. So, these things that this oil dropped. 10:19:05 can tunnel through something that's somewhat like a barrier we'll talk a little bit more about that because that was one of the big questions that I. 10:19:18 Hi Lauren Can you hear me. 10:30:44 This week's episode of physics frontiers, we're going to talk about pilot way of hydro dynamics, okay so pilot wave hydrodynamic, this is something that has to do with this broken a bone interpretation of quantum mechanics right this is not interesting 10:30:57 just because of whatever it is this pilot wave thing. That's right We brought this up. We mentioned at one time in our to Berkeley bone deploy the bone pilot wave interpretation of quantum mechanics, and it's a fascinating experiment, and it's shared 10:31:13 lot of light, I think, on a possible new model, a new interpretation of quantum mechanics just by being a macroscopic phenomenon, it's really kind of fun to watch and very tempting by the way to have around the house to show your friends, so we decided 10:31:28 that we were going to dedicate an episode to just these wonderful oil drop experiments that emulate quantum mechanical behavior in a way that has nobody had anticipated as being possible until you've called coup de, and the manual for it came up with 10:31:43 it in round 2006, what are the properties of this hydrodynamic wave that make it look like quantum mechanics. Well let's first talk about a description of what the experiments entail. 10:31:53 Well yeah, that's what I'd like to know so what is it about these pilot waves that is actually doing something that acts like quantum mechanics. Well, the wonderful thing about the oil drop experiments and if you've seen the video and I guess we'll have 10:32:05 a link maybe on our blog so that you can see these is if you agitate, a bath of oil, and you drop a little beads of of a little droplets of oil on top of that vibrating oil bath. 10:32:19 When they bounce they create waves and the particle interacts with its own waves from its impacts with the oil, and that creates a whole new range of behaviors that we've never seen before in classical mechanics, things like being able to emulate the 10:32:37 double slit experiment. We're using a single particle, going through the double slit experiment and creating an interference pattern on the other end. 10:32:45 So it's this interaction between the self generated waves on the surface of the oil and the droplet that creates these, these behaviors. And it turns out that you can extend this pretty significantly to create all kinds of wonderful behaviors that we 10:33:03 had only thought existed in the realm of quantum mechanics, until this these experiments came out. So, these things that this oil drop can do our single particle diffraction that's basically what you're talking about here with the double slit experiment, 10:33:18 you can tunnel through something that's somewhat like a barrier we'll talk a little bit more about that because that was one of the big questions that I had in the previous episode. 10:33:26 It also has Quantcast orbits and orbital level splitting as well that's actually interesting how that shows up, and there's a claim here that this also has been states but I wasn't really clear in the reading. 10:33:39 Exactly how these were spin states, there is angular momentum in this that I've been I saw on some of these experiments and and theoretical developments, but I didn't see anything that looks like a spin state for the oil droplet, but those are the five 10:33:53 things that this guy Bush, who wrote this paper that paper will also be in the show notes. That's right, we're looking at a 2014 mit paper by john Wm Bush, called pilot way of hydro dynamics, so those five things were the five things that he claimed that 10:34:09 you could see and it pretty good descriptions of the first four in different states, I think all of them had some sort of experimental actualization, but he also had theoretical reasons for each one of them. 10:34:22 I don't remember him hallucinating. This spin states either but he did refer to a paper by omega, which was published in the same year as this paper so maybe, maybe had been to recent for him to just to treat it in his paper. 10:34:35 Yeah, we'll just have to look at that and see what they mean by spin states in that case so Bush's a mathematician, as I understand it, so it's kind of interesting to see this come out of the mathematics department, rather than the physics department, 10:34:49 although I mean it's not too strange in in graduate school, there was this book I kept going back to in the library. 10:34:58 That was very very interesting to me because what it was is it was actually a German philosophy book that was in the Science Library in the hydrodynamic section, and went through three competing theories of hydro dynamics, it seems like hydro dynamics 10:35:18 split at some point between practical theoretical and even more theoretical issues between an engineering viewpoint physics viewpoint in a mathematics viewpoint. 10:35:28 And on top of that, the three of them don't actually agree. So there are three ways to develop Hydra dynamics, and they all work in different regimes, based on how and in what ways you want to actually work but this guy put together this review paper 10:35:42 over these experiments over the past 10 years or so I guess eight years, when he wrote it, and we just went through and talked about basically these walking droplets called paradise haters bouncing around on sort of a self similar or little droplets of 10:35:57 oil on the same oil. Basically, bouncing around above the oil, the same kind of oil, you know I was, I wondered when I was when I was looking at these experiments and in. 10:36:09 Sometimes the oil droplet can get absorbed into the oil. Why don't they just use like a, like a droplet of water, bouncing on oil baths so that they won't get absorbed that i don't know i mean maybe just to keep the oil Queen and you know with all the 10:36:23 the same properties and stuff like that. As far as I know there's no rationale for it but there may be some problem with the absorbers and stuff like that so I mean it seems to be very very particular about when you can actually get the Walker, but see 10:36:37 that's the thing is I think that maybe if they tried something else like either a different kind of fluid which can't be absorbed by the oil, or maybe even a solid object like a little hollow sphere, then they wouldn't have that problem of the absorbing 10:36:48 right that's possible you could have like a little silica ball, doing the same thing, I assume, but it might not react in the same way, because you really have three different things going on in these droplets you have the ball bouncing up and down, you 10:37:02 have the reaction to that ball that's waving around in in the oil bath. The surface is kind of agitated because the wave bath is being vibrated that's important is that we have to have that vibrational frequency going on, they're coming from an outside 10:37:16 source, right. So basically there's a limit, the third a threshold. So we've got this oil in a container, that's on top of a big speaker that speakers being vibrated it apparently low frequency, and I think it's the amplitude of that is going to be increased 10:37:33 and as adding amplitude of the vibration increases as the sound gets louder from that speaker basically although it's not really that loud, as compared to how loud I originally thought it would be. 10:37:43 You make that louder and louder until just see those ripples coming out, you see a bunch of ripples on the surface of the oil and then you go back down under that spot where it's rippling so you don't want to see those ripples going to be right at that 10:37:57 spot, just below where it's going to going to create a large array of ripples in water. So wait, I thought they were visible though because when you sent me that other video. 10:38:09 Just recently, showing the water experiments, you could see the sort of standing waves on the surface when they did the water droplets on top, but they were, but they weren't strong enough to actually like break. 10:38:21 They weren't they weren't strong enough to create like bubbles or anything. Yeah, according to this, you want to be just below the point where you can see them, possibly if you're just at the point where you can see them, it still works. 10:38:32 The closer you are to that 30 threshold, the longer the droplets exist, I guess, if you were exactly at that third a threshold, and if you had, you know, perfect droplets and and stuff like that. 10:38:45 just bounce around forever. If you could get the perfect frequency, and you could get the that never shifted even a tiny, tiny amount. 10:38:58 And if every droplet was perfectly spiritual all the time and all that other stuff. I think that's the theory behind it. So yeah, you need to have that perfectly at that threshold, which is kind of interesting because what you're trying to do is you're 10:39:10 trying to get the, the amount of time that the droplet is pushing against the air in between it and the fluid between the droplet and the surface, you want that to be less than the amount of time for all the air to drain out from between the droplet and 10:39:28 the fluid. You do remember the name of that was that like relax relaxation time It started with an R, you remember the term they used for that. I do not see that in my notes that was it. 10:39:42 And then, that wasn't in the, in the paper it was in that video that you sent me about what the where they tried to do this with water because water will do this too, but it doesn't they don't those droplets don't last as long. 10:39:52 there is a relaxation time for how long you know these, these things will happen, a relaxation time is just how much time it's going to take for, I think one over, he might depend on how they define it but a relaxation time should be the amount of time 10:40:05 for a little bit more than 30% of the air in between the droplet and the surface to evacuate. That's an exponential process, but if that relaxation time is too quick, then you're not going to have enough time for the carrier part of the ball to do the 10:40:24 bouncy part right so the fluid has to perform during that balance right, so it will perform like a, just like a ball does so it deforms, and it's stretching out the surface and then the surface tension is says I don't like this, I want to be a sphere 10:40:40 right so it pushes back, and then that's what propels the ball back up. So propels the problem back up, but if the air brains out before it can do that full cycle, then it just pops back into the water. 10:40:53 That's why you need to take into account that relaxation time for the air in the water, I see I see on the video now where they say this, they call it the residence time is the time that it will hang out on top of the water before it, or the fluid before 10:41:06 it gets reabsorbed okay so that's a completely different thing although it's not a completely different thing it is a different related Yeah, okay. With this experiment, we get, like we talked about the double slit experiment. 10:41:17 So the you with a single particle this oil bouncing on its own wave with a barrier that has two slits in it for the particle to bounce through the amazing thing is is that when it, it'll pick one of the two slits to go through, but it will create the 10:41:33 interference pattern on when it hits the far barrier on the far side. That's exactly the same as quantum mechanical behavior that you see with the electronics and photon double slit experiment. 10:41:45 So, this was that was the real eye opener that I think you've coup de and manual for started with, and then they expanded it, and they found that you could emulate things like tunneling, they would put a barrier, just under the surface of the oil, and 10:42:03 that created like an energy barrier for the particle, so that most of the time, it would veer away from that area. 10:42:13 And then other times, it would jump over it. So then you had it, then you had an analog for quantum tunneling also, which is the phenomenon where a particle like a photon or electron can spontaneously leap through a thin layer of matter to get to the 10:42:31 other side. Yeah, that's the interesting thing and this is the question that I had previously was, how would you model that, in this case and so when I think of timeline I'll think of something like in a tunneling diode, right and how a ton of tunneling 10:42:46 diode works is you would have, let's say two bits of metal, right, either side of the tunneling barrier, and in between there, you'd have an insulated. 10:42:57 And so you have a physical barrier, a real physical barrier that completely breaks up the material that the electron is traveling in, and you know that electron can actually tunnel through that barrier go from one end to the other. 10:43:11 If that barriers small enough, but it decreases in probability to go from one side of the barrier, the other side exponentially, or approximate approximately exponential. 10:43:20 And so, you don't really have to get very very thick for that to be almost zero, right, so that even though you're trying to send you know tend to the 16 electrons through a piece of wire, you know you still only have a slight probability that any of 10:43:38 them will get through, you don't you're not even guaranteed one getting through when you have 25 to 50 nanometers worth of insulator in there and he at that point you're not seen any tunneling anymore You have to have something that's very very thin in 10:43:51 range of a couple of nanometers and most right it didn't even become a significant engineering consideration, until we are building micro processors so small that they were at that level, where you're looking at your conductor being separated by an insulator 10:44:09 by less than, you know, a few nanometers. Yeah, that's the only way that you can have that sort of thing there what they've put in here, the way they've got this barrier is the barrier is still under the fluid, it's just gets very very close to the surface 10:44:25 of the fluid and that changes the way, rather than looking like tunneling if you just looked at the fluid it doesn't look like tunneling it looks more like a reflection or changing the wave barrier, it looks like a reflection, if you look in how the wave 10:44:40 is reacting. Sure, which is exactly what you'd expect you ever reflection. This thing's very very close you still have some transmission, right. So, and this is, this would be something that's normal in physics. 10:44:53 If you have a barrier like that, if you were to have an electromagnetic wave go from one crystal to another crystal, then some of that light will transmit into the other crystal and some of it will reflect off of it, and that'll depend mainly on the match 10:45:07 of the dielectric constant of the two materials, mainly I mean you can look at it in other ways, but that's that's the main way to look at it, and so that is what it looks like, is going on here, the argument that I'd see there is that this quantum fluid 10:45:22 however this quantum fluid is seen has to somehow permeate through these barriers and I'm not really sure how the quantum fluid is really going to work but there has to be something about this quantum fluid that the particle is interacting with you are 10:45:52 talking when you say quantum fluid Do you mean are you talking about, in, in, I'm not really sure what you're talking about. So let's say we have this hydrodynamic analogy. 10:45:47 Okay, so this is a hydrodynamic analogy, we have a droplet, we're looking at the oil drop experiments okay yeah so the. So we have this thing that we call a walker and the hydrodynamic analogy, gotta walk the Walker is the droplet, plus the way in quantum 10:46:03 mechanics, what we have is what we call a particle that particle is the Walker. All right. It's the droplet, or it's an electron, or a photon or something yeah so you have your electron, or your photon, but in the analogy it's still going to be what's 10:46:19 called a quantum particle or dual right if the analogy holds up, then what you have is some sort of quantum fluid. You mean like the zero point fluctuations, the vacuum fluctuations, that's a possibility, so you'd have that plus you'd have whatever the 10:46:36 particle is or the fluctuations in the field. Plus, the particle not the food itself but the fluctuations in the fluid fluctuations in the fluid, plus the particle makeup, the quantum particle, but that means that, but personality to work that means that 10:46:52 that quantum fluid, whatever that is, has to be something that permeates through matter which shouldn't be hard for anything on the quantum level. So, I mean because matters just a bunch of empty space basically with some little tiny point so right stuff 10:47:10 in the middle. 10:47:12 So, so that shouldn't be too difficult. A analogy, but it's still a little bit hard to envision exactly how this works as a barrier. I mean if you just look at this it's hard to do that because if you were to look at a basic quantum mechanics book. 10:47:28 Well, you'd be looking at is, instead of having a partial barrier like this. So you do have to do problems like this, right where you have some sort of level, some sort of energy level and then you have a barrier that's below that energy level, but very 10:47:41 very close and you can look at the transmission or reflection, but on the other hand, you can also do things in that quantum mechanics book where that energy barrier would be above the fluid or above the energy level of the electron, and you'd still have 10:47:56 to go through. So, well you have to do is not think about that, because this fluid level, I think, is not the energy level and those diagrams, which are created for some other reason but that's what you're going to think about if you've been trained, 10:48:11 you know to do quantum mechanics. That's the first thing you're going to think about is, here's my energy level. I have a barrier that it's tunneling through that barrier has to come out of the fluid, but probably, that's just an issue with the depiction 10:48:26 of the energy levels, as compared to the physical realization this particular experiment, they know I'm, I don't know if they've done that experiment where you have a barrier that physically comes up higher than the fluid, but it seems to me that if you 10:48:38 fired you're bouncing droplet fast enough, at a net and narrow enough boundary that was coming out of the oil that it should be able to overcome the momentum that it picks up from its own reflected waves when it approaches the barrier and balances high 10:48:53 enough in order to get over that barrier. That was what I was originally thinking, would be was happening so if he listened to me. 10:49:00 If you listen to me ramble on. In the previous episode or two or three episodes ago about the pilot wave theory. Yeah, if you listen to me ramble on about the pilot wave theory. 10:49:09 I'm going to probably say something like that, unless I cut it out, but that's definitely what I was thinking, would have to be the way you did the tunneling barrier. 10:49:19 But that's not the way it's realized here, or when other people talk about this sort of thing, right. So, that's not what they want to do, there might be some practical issues that have to do with that like what might happen in that case, a lot of the 10:49:33 time is something that wouldn't happen in quantum mechanics, which is the oil will splash up on top of the barrier and just you know what the top of the barrier, and not do anything real right you'd lose your particle, because of, you know, real physical 10:49:47 effects. Sure. All right, you know, might make it, you know, I'd like to try that experiment. 10:49:53 Let's move on to bounded states of droplet pairs that's pretty fascinating. That is interesting that they can, they can actually orbit each other, right, just because of this self interaction between the waves. 10:50:04 Yeah, yeah so and that's again how quantum particles would have to interact in this thing is that the waves would have to make their little interference pattern the droplets hit on top of them. 10:50:16 And then they bounce off and whatever strange Russians they happen to bounce off or the particles would be or off in other directions, and if you get things just right obviously they keep bouncing around in such a way that the orbit each other, just chaotic. 10:50:29 I'd swear, I remember reading an article where a while back about being able to do that with photons, can you get photons to orbit each other like that. 10:50:40 Somebody told me about getting two photons orbiting each other I'm not sure how they would have done that. And so I can't really comment you know a lot of things like that end up being dependent on very particular materials that they chose and so really 10:50:52 you're looking at an interaction inside of a material that's highly nonlinear it That doesn't mean it's not interesting. It just means that it's not quite the thing that you read in the headline. 10:51:04 It doesn't mean it's not interesting. It just means that it's not quite the thing that you read in the headline. Yeah, it sounds. Yeah, I was thinking about actually like photons and free space, somehow interacting with their each other's fields so that 10:51:16 they orbit at each other which you know some mind blowing thought, Yeah, that would be very interesting but I'm not sure what they can do that I don't know photons interact with photons I thought protons had to interact with a material for me. 10:51:22 Okay, so my understanding was that bosons interact with Fermi arms and then permissions interact with those zones, so that they have this sort of dual relationship between them. 10:51:32 But I could be completely off, and I'm sure some theoretical physicists will go down to the comments and explain to me exactly how protons and electrons interact, we'll have to look into that and do another show about that okay there's also another phenomenon 10:51:45 which is really fascinating, the motion in a central force, where they would have like a pharaoh fluid a pharaoh magnetic fluid in the oil mixed in. And then they would put up magnetic field in the center of, say your experimental oil bath. 10:52:04 And so you've actually got at that point, and attractive force happening with all the WAV dynamics and this would conceptually least seeing very much like an electron orbiting a proton. 10:52:17 Well yeah, that's basically what they were trying to simulate right. So, yeah, take the silica oil you infuse it with, you know, natural magnetic particles, really small particles I'm not really sure what they use, he just said something about Pharaoh 10:52:30 foods, but all feral food is his little tiny particles in a fluid. That's all you need. And then yeah, that means that everything will have a desire to go towards the center. 10:52:41 If you just take like the point of a very thin magnet and put it at the center, everything will want to go in there. It sounded like it had to be fairly small for these guys to do anything with it, but yeah yeah that wander around with chaotic Lee, but 10:52:55 it had similar conservation was right. And so, lots of things like the average radius and the average annual momentum, they all say constant basically embed experiment. 10:53:07 Even though it looked like they were bouncing around at random, if you did statistics on them and and tried to figure out what the averages of different things were everything acted just like they would, you know, quantum mechanical system in a, in a 10:53:20 bounce state system basically in the central potential, so did were they able to replicate the orbital dynamics that it would bring to mind like the discrete orbital levels of hydrogen atom, with an electron going around it were they able to replicate 10:53:32 it that way. 10:53:32 I know they were able to do it with a rotating fluid which is a whole other fascinating thing, but were they all to do with the central force. Yeah, I don't know exactly how they did it. 10:53:41 I do know that I sketched out some stuff here about what it was looking like and trying to figure out, sort of the orbital radius versus rotation and stuff like that looks like the slower you're rotating, the more different energy levels you can achieve, 10:53:55 although you can only achieve one at a time for different rotation rates, you can achieve more than one. And it looks like that's sort of history dependent on how you got there. 10:54:07 So, I didn't see anything that made me think that they did that with the central force. I wonder if they've tried, I mean if you rotate the whole bath uniformly, then you've got your then you're going to have certain types of observations, but if you 10:54:19 have a vortex. Then the spinning is going to be faster closer to the center and slower on the outside, so maybe then you could get the discrete orbitals that look just like a hydrogen atom. 10:54:30 Well I mean it sounds to me like they have a very close analogy I mean they're not going to get them looking just like it because it's in two dimensions, instead of three, well I mean that's Yeah sure, but it looks like the radio functions look very very 10:54:43 close to what actually happens with those energy levels that is, you're getting that boost energy state, you basically have one place that is a piece right you have one. 10:55:10 ring that's a peak for your radius, but you get to the higher energy states you have multiple peaks. 10:55:04 And those multiple peaks aren't different energy levels, the fact that it has multiple peaks, is the higher energy level. Okay, so that's different. So it's not just the average radius. 10:55:15 That's important. I mean, the average radius is important. But what's also important is that at these higher energy levels have multiple peaks in the radio part of the wave function. 10:55:25 So, there are multiple places where the electrons spends a lot of time. I wonder if they also get like spontaneous orbital shifts with their droplets Did you see anything in there about that. 10:55:35 I'm just really intrigued about the idea of creating an analog like a, like a macroscopic analog of an actual hydrogen atom, well I mean it would be it would be interesting. 10:55:43 I didn't see anything about that. 10:55:44 I saw things that made me think that that happened nice, there should be some figure in there that has the radius versus rotation rate figure, five. So in figure five. 10:55:58 If you look at say figure five be. Yeah, or figure five see you see that, you know, you've got these basically different energy levels. So this plot looks like a little wavy thing but the wavy part is on the vertical axis. 10:56:16 All right. Yeah, so that means there are places on this graph where you have more than one value of the dependent variable for the value of the independent variable so if you set your frequency to to whatever's, right, you end up with three different 10:56:33 spots that look like their possibilities on the radius, but you have two things, wherever the line is going forwards, that's a viable solution for if it's going backwards, so that it's going downwards and is downwards to the left, in that case that's 10:56:50 not, that's why the red hot forbidden trajectories that may be because I'm looking at it in black and white. Oh, so maybe more information on this graph and I see is, so those don't actually her. 10:57:04 Those are unstable. So, the particle happened to be on that radius Exactly. And if there were no outside perturbations it would stay there but in the real world, there's always an outside preservation and you never get there quite exactly right, so that 10:57:17 if the particle hits a bad spot. Want to go away from that either by going down to the lower radius or the higher radius. Well that just brings to mind, the thought that okay. 10:57:27 I mean, you do have spontaneous decay of electron in orbit around an atom when they're an excited state, and maybe they're knocked off of those stable regions by the quantum vacuum fluctuations, possibly, yeah what I wanted to say about this is that you'll 10:57:44 notice if you look at this, there do seem to be things that look like transitions and and they look like they're transitions because it looks like they're coming down from a from a higher frequency. 10:57:57 And there's some spot where they're technically viable solutions. 10:58:03 Technically viable solutions where this lower energy state should be achieved, but apparently it's jumped up to the higher state so there's like, where there are no actual observations there it's just, everything is up at the higher state so it looks 10:58:17 like there's something going on here, such that if this thing gets below a certain frequency has a higher, higher, higher and higher probability of jumping up to the higher energy state, oh ok so the jumps up instead of down, maybe I'm reading this because 10:58:31 it's a, This is the radius not the energy state. 10:58:35 This is the, this is what the measured orbital radius as a function of the bats rotation rate that should be higher energy state I expect. Oh, you mean the when the radius gets smaller the energies higher than what you're saying. 10:58:57 I was, I was thinking so if it's at a lower radius it wants to jump up to the next higher one of the camp. And you see that in SEO in a lot of different spots where there's a rate region where there should be at least one overlap, and it just doesn't 10:59:12 have any walkers observations at sort of the lower frequencies of that particular overlap. So I think there is something going on there. 10:59:21 To be honest, if there is something going on there. And that's something somebody should look at is, see and explain exactly how that transition occurs. 10:59:30 And the reason why that would be right word, is because, in, in an atom in the model that we have for the atom that transition occurs because the electronic mitts photon. 10:59:42 So, what would the analogy be there, you'd want to imagine that some kind of wave front would escape. At that point, like maybe the or the waves or, or, it's hard to tell from these static photos but maybe the energy of the waves the pilot waves, somehow 10:59:57 bound, when it's doing and doing a constant circular orbit, and maybe some of the energy that wave front radiates out when it changes orbitals, possibly, I mean it would have to be something like that, I think, yeah, I don't want to think too much. 11:00:12 Good stuff though okay so let's see this move on. There's theoretical developments I guess that have that have that they've been working on. 11:00:24 In recent years, since the 2006 revelation about this experiment so they've, they've been working really hard to understand the precise mechanics, and to expand on them to get a better analogy for quantum behavior right yeah I guess the first thing that 11:00:41 they're looking at is just when can you get these droplets actually occur. Right. 11:00:47 When can you get these Walker's to actually occur. right. So, like you said there was this thing where this guy was looking at water droplets and through water droplets when doing anything like this. 11:00:58 But in the silica you do get something like that and that's probably because these three dimension was numbers aren't satisfied in the, in the case of war. 11:01:09 Well, he was getting he was getting the water to bounce but it is then seemed like it lasted for very long even when they had optimal conditions, right. 11:01:16 So there was certain surface tension limitations and energy and last density problems, I guess there's drag within a fluid and you want to get an optimal elastic fluid that kind of thing going on so they've really gotten into it to try to figure out a 11:01:29 mathematical model of how this works. And they needed a high Reynolds number, for example, about 20. And then they had a couple of other numbers that they put together which, I think, at least one of them was the wrong one was a small bottle number, and 11:01:46 that's been number compares the weight to the surface tension. 11:01:51 And if that number is small meaning either the surface tension is high or the weight, or the density is small, right then you get a spherical droplet if you don't get that spherical droplet, you don't get the Walker. 11:02:04 So you have to have high surface tension that forces you gives you a very spiritual droplet. They've also extended this. 11:02:12 They've also been looking at the mathematics. This is this really fascinates me is the idea of the memory. 11:02:19 The memory of how the mathematics emulates the fact that the waves from previous bounces continue to exist on on the surface of the oil for a long time. 11:02:32 And so you want to be able to account for all that all those waves, going back many many bounces in order to properly emulate the experiment observations that you see it yes so you're walkers need to have some sort of path memory for them to act like 11:02:47 mechanical particles, so the droplet when it bounces it's, it's bouncing off of the sort of local slope of the interface, right. So that's why I can look random is because you know if it's just bouncing around. 11:03:01 And, you know, if it's somewhere near a peak it's very, it could be very easily off just a little bit, and bounce to the left or off to the other side and bounce to the right, because it seems the peak or the or the trough of that wave, right. 11:03:16 So, it hit right at the center, it would go straight up and down if it was a little bit off to the right, it would bounce the left a little bit off to the left, to the right, but then the shape of the wave itself is often interacting with previous waves 11:03:25 right. Well, the, the shape of the wave is going to interfere with other ways so that's as far as I know from reading this. 11:03:38 There's nothing you don't need a nonlinear. This is a linear fluid, which means that the waves will add and subtract, but they won't sort of create new ways the waves don't get two waves a hit each other they basically will pass through each other, just 11:03:54 like on the ocean. Sometimes you'll see that when you go to when you go to the beach, you'll see that there's, you know one major set of waves coming in from out of the ocean and then from some, some rocks or somewhere there'll be another set of waves, 11:04:08 and a smaller set of waves it just seems to travel perpendicular or maybe not quite perpendicular along those waves, but they do add and subtract but their peaks and valleys, yeah yeah so they interfere in that way and that gives you the sort of wave 11:04:23 interference, that gives you the wave interference. like if you had a real wave that was doing the moving this thing, right, is that these different waves do talk to each other in some sort, in some sense, and if the drop went moves fast enough from bounce 11:04:38 the bounce it can catch its last pounds interfering with a bounce it you know three bounces ago is there is there any way to see if quantum mechanical particles have that same property today is there a memory to their wave function, it's, it's just the 11:04:55 OP or is that just a necessity out of the system, basically the way quantum mechanics is set up. There is no damping. There is no damping in the wave function. 11:05:05 And that means that the way quantum mechanics is set up it's automatically high memory, in the sense of these people. Fascinating. Okay, I didn't know that. 11:05:14 So it has the same sort of superposition principle has the same sort of wave interference. 11:05:20 These, these ways they're not interacting in the way that a physicist would say they were interacting. 11:05:26 All the high memory means is that the waves don't damp out, and the energy disperse among the rest of the fluid. 11:05:34 Very, very quickly. I thought what he was talking about here was that when they said hi memory, he meant that they were accounting for, you know, several generations back of way formation. 11:05:44 Well, what high memory means in this case is that before the wave damps out, it exists for a long period of time, and so that means that the droplet can hit several times and still be feeling the effects of the first bounce. 11:05:58 That's right. There's nothing additional in there don't read too much into that high memory, high memory just means low damping. Okay, but it means that the wave stick around for a long time so quantum mechanics does seem to indicate that the wave stick 11:06:09 around for a long time like they do in this fluid hop. Yes, well in quantum mechanics they stick, they stick around forever. Well, what's the deal I mean what is the nature of this wave of the wave and the pilot wave theory, I'm not sure that I understand 11:06:21 this or that we talking about some kind of electromagnetic wave, or is there a different property to it. Okay, so what do you mean you're talking about in Berkeley. 11:06:32 Yes, or. Okay, well they have that analogy here, and that was fairly interesting for a couple of reasons. One of them is because this guy, what do we call him bush bush was the writer of this paper Yeah, one of the things he's saying is that even though 11:06:48 the the broccoli and boom theories have been put together over and over that they have to be sort of separated out, because the Mobley actually has two ways. 11:07:00 The internal oscillations in the pilot wave, which is more like this thing, whereas bone only had one way than one particle that was sort of moving at the probability velocity, the depth average fluid velocity in this case, it seemed to me that the stuff 11:07:18 that they were talking about the stuff at the pilot wave is made up of is not really specified, whatever that stuff is it's just some sort of way. So that's probably one of the things people have as a problem with this is that you don't really have any 11:07:34 idea about what the deeper way wave is in yeah if it's if it's going to guide the particle, it's got to have some kind of way of interacting with it, but what is that what type of interaction is that, yeah and that's one of the places where people start 11:07:48 talking about this being the zero point field, being the electromagnetic field I guess that's all the stochastic electrodynamics right that we're we've promised to talk about in the future future episode. 11:08:00 Not next week. 11:08:01 So that's one way to push things into stochastic electrodynamics is to say, it's the electromagnetic field, that the particle is bouncing around in and causing the ripples in. 11:08:14 Well yeah, in stochastic electrodynamics, you're just interpreting the quantum vacuum fluctuation is the zero point energy field as photons that are real, but they have a very specific spectrum distribution that's Lorenz and varying and their momentum 11:08:28 is transferred to the particles, the electrons and protons and all that, which is why they get around a little bit, that's pretty easy to understand, because you've got, if you got a photon it's a packet of energy that has momentum, and it strikes it 11:08:42 like a little billiard ball almost. And so, then what's getting hit all from all directions, it's going to wiggle around. 11:08:49 But the idea of a particle, having its own pilot wave that gets a little more complicated because now you're not talking about photon energy coming in and impacting the particle. 11:09:00 Now you're talking about some kind of ripple in the space around the particle. That's interacting with the particle itself. And I think that's sort of the issue here is for window interpreted this way then it's got to somehow not be just part of the particle. 11:09:17 Right. It has to be something that the neighboring particle has some sort of access to, because otherwise you don't get interactions, right, and you do get interactions, right. 11:09:29 So, that also would make you think that this would have something to do with the electromagnetic field, because that's how in quantum electrodynamics, you know, to fermion, interact with each other through the medium of Bowser right to electrons, interact 11:09:49 with each other through the medium of a futon. So you think that in a more robust, you probably are boom sort of theory that's what it would be. And maybe that's where stochastic electrodynamics does come in. 11:10:03 Maybe that's where it really will show up. Maybe that's where we really will be useful since I don't really know very much about it, I can't really say very much about. 11:10:14 Part of the problem with this has a analogy is one obviously we just talked about. We don't know what this field is right. In fact, the original the Berkeley a theory, had the particle interacting with its own field, which we just said, and there was 11:10:33 a singularity, at that point, which is always bad, not so bad anymore It was really bad when he invented it puts in people like Fineman wandered around and figure out how to sweep infinity under the rug, the normalization. 11:10:46 Yeah, issue. Also, what's, you don't really know what's going on with this Bing. Right. So, you have a parametric forcing, in this case so you have basically a monochromatic oscillation, in this field, which means everything has the same wavelength, how 11:11:05 Now that actually works with something in the real world where you don't, you don't really know what is the driving field. So you don't know what's driving it. 11:11:14 Right. In our case we have acoustics, driving a wave in the water, right, but in the G probably a thing you don't really have anything but some sort of internal clock or something that's driving your article. 11:11:28 Well if it's the, if it's the zero point fluctuations, then we would say that this in say let's say in the case of electron. If you have this stochastic signal coming in and and striking the particle and giving it energy along a specific spectrum, then 11:11:49 you've got this kind of quality of noise but the noise that's of its vibration has specific properties. So instead of being monochromatic now you've got this whole spectrum, and went and electron gets accelerated by these impacts by or by these momentum 11:12:04 transfers. 11:12:05 Any accelerating electrons is going to create a magnetic field right so you can see where the electrons, creating its own pilot way of that way but it wouldn't be this kind of pilot way we would have a totally different character because it would be many 11:12:18 many different wavelengths, you have to have some idea about what's going on with doing that and one way to do that is use the zero point field for that they use so cast collector dynamics, it's always possible that we've got all that figured out, and 11:12:32 maybe, maybe we do. 11:12:33 Yeah, the trigger frequencies, they apparently know, right. So they've got a good idea that the competent wavelength should be the trigger frequency, no matter what it is that it's bouncing around in or what's making it bounce. 11:12:48 Then they know what the frequency should be, which is fairly interesting. We don't know anything about it, but we know what its frequency is. Well, that makes sense though because the electrons is going to have a specific interaction wavelength right, 11:13:00 that's sort of the issue with bringing things back into quantum mechanics, right, going from this macroscopic analogy to the microscopic reality, there are things that just are not really well described. 11:13:13 Now it looks like you could go to, it looks like you could go to something like stochastic electrodynamics as a way of building this up into something a little more robust, but at least. 11:13:25 Yeah, frankly, It looks to me like if you couples stochastic electrodynamics with pilot wave theory, you should be able to completely demystify all of quantum mechanics because you've got mechanistic causal and conceptual, you know, mechanism happening 11:13:41 for everything. Oh, yeah. I mean, it looks like at least according to what we have in this paper. It looks like you need something like sarcastic electrodynamics on top of the boldly interpretation to make it a complete interpretation. 11:13:58 Right. 11:13:59 And I think that's probably one of the reasons why a lot of people don't like to broken a bone is just because there's so much stuff that's sort of unknowable in there about, you know, what is this thing that the particles interacting with, is it completely 11:14:14 separate entity or is it a part of the part of the world, or what it has at some point be a part of the particle right so, and we see that here, right, you know the the wave, plus the particle, but not the wave plus the droplet is the Walker. 11:14:32 So that doesn't mean that all of the fluid plus the droplet is the Walker, it's just the self generated wave and the droplet makes the Walker, well maybe that's maybe that's the the the problem that we run into with that I run into a lot with people who 11:14:47 who don't like the pilot way of theory is it without adding in something like stochastic electrodynamics it's not really, It doesn't really fully explain the behavior that you're looking for, to emulate reality. 11:15:00 Well that's always been the problem i think is that you have to stipulate these two different entities. 11:15:08 And you can measure it most one of them, but you can't even show that you've got two of them, right, you can measure one thing you can't show that there's a second thing to be measured, and so forth. 11:15:30 Maybe you can you can do that but nobody's got a way to do that if somebody had a way to measure both the wave and the particle, then you wouldn't have an interpretation anyway. Well I have an idea about that, about how to maybe extend this type of modeling. 11:15:34 I remember seeing a great paper where they used a white noise. 11:15:41 To create a field. An acoustical field and then they would put two plates together and they were able to emulate the chasm mirror effect. 11:15:48 So what if you want with an acoustic model where you created that kind of like a, like a stochastic noise background, and then had your artificial test particles, either maybe as, as some kind of a plastics spheres or something like that or maybe they'd 11:16:05 even generate their own way and so I'm not sure, but maybe and then you could create a more comprehensive and accurate model that would work in a macroscopic scale that was supplant. 11:17:35 background, and then had your artificial test particles, either maybe as, as some kind of a plastics sphere is or something like that or maybe they even generate their own way and I'm not sure, but maybe then you could create a more comprehensive and accurate 11:17:51 model that would work in a macroscopic scale that would supplant. This type of hydrodynamic model, I think there's something to that but, I mean, as I understand it, one of the things that's nice about this particular interpretation is that it does get 11:18:06 closer to understand, or at least I guess it's with us to escalate the drug dynamics, but it actually explains the cashmere effect, but regular quantum mechanics doesn't really explain it apparently it's just something that you see, but you have to have 11:18:20 something there something else, added on to make it work. Right. I wonder what you get if you had say the two lightweight metallics fears. Let's say you that you filled them with hydrogen or something so they were, they would float in equilibrium, and 11:18:38 an acoustical chamber, and you charge one of the spheres with a negative charge electrostatic Lee, and another charge and charged another one with say a positive charge, and then you turned on your stochastic noise generator and wonder what kind of interactions 11:18:51 you get under those conditions like could you get orbitals and discrete orbitals and that kind of thing because when it was only specific wavelengths of acoustical noise influenced the movement of the spheres and that kind of thing. 11:19:03 Yeah, that would be interesting to figure out what what you could do with that, yeah might might be quite difficult to figure out the right conditions I think you'd probably have to go back to some of these things like this. 11:19:17 Reynolds number where you need to you need this high Reynolds number right so you need a relatively low velocity of sound, and you need something very spiritual. 11:19:38 And then you need some sort of way to characterize the interaction, and that interaction should be reasonably small, right. So, so that you have in bring like interaction between the balloon or the sphere and the end the acoustic, the acoustic waves Nazis 11:19:51 achievable. It'll be fascinating to see where this goes. Because, you know, the march forward, and we'll we'll see additional models like this come out, maybe even better ones to emulate quantum mechanics, it's kind of exciting to think of that would 11:20:03 be interesting to see if you can get really really strong correlations between one of these experiments and something that's not really well explained, especially in standard quantum mechanics. 11:20:17 I mean, that's another thing we always have to remember is that last correlation right which is that whatever we're talking about what I'm talking about. 11:20:26 All of these interpretations is they all have to also work with in relative relativistic way right they all have to work relativistic Lee, you know, and a lot of cases when we read the quantum metaphysics stuff when we talked about this last time and 11:20:40 talking about this this time. It's very easy to forget that everything has to be okay relativistic Lee, and, and, you know, we've already made some allusion to that by saying stuff about, you know, the route, probably boom interpretation needs to have 11:21:00 its fundamental frequency be the competent wavelength, but to actually do an interpretation of non world specific quantum mechanics, that's viable relativistic Lee, but see here's the thing is that the is the velocity of the waves in the soil drop experiments 11:21:18 experiments are fairly slow very slow. The wave propagation. And now if you're looking at that if those waves is analogues to light for example, then you, it seems to me that you should be able to see that the part of the pilot way if the particle bouncing 11:21:34 on its own wave really couldn't accelerate faster to speed faster than its own way front can propagate right because it won't be able to bounce on the leading edge of the wave that it's propagating from itself. 11:21:49 If the wave has a finite velocity so it should extend to a relativistic regime in that analogy right well with what you're talking about, you might not have to worry too much about that. 11:22:00 It's hard to tell, since you don't know what the particle is and you don't know what the wave is. 11:22:03 It's really hard to tell what you can do, but if you just think about some of the things that happened in quantum mechanics right, if you just think about how a wave packet evolves, the wave packet will leave plenty of traces, as it slowly increases in 11:22:34 sorts of velocity is associated with itself interaction between the Walker and the way I shouldn't call it a walker because it's now quantum mechanical part, but you know some of these interactions will go out exactly at the speed of light, but because 11:22:49 they're only a certain velocities, that will have to be less than the speed of light like the front quality, right. Other velocities can travel faster than light because they're not really caring information right the group philosophy that kind of thing 11:23:06 you'd be able to get all sorts of patterns coming out of all of these different things happening, and I think you'll be perfectly capable of having things self interacting with their own waves, because the waves are extended you know it's not like you're 11:23:21 going to end up having, you know, a wave front that travels along, and you never see it again, you know you have real ripple effect. and that ripple effect, even though it's in three dimensions, is going to allow you to self interact with your way. 11:23:42 Okay, I'm just thinking about how, if the way, if the wave front is moving is moving with a finite velocity. 11:23:51 Then, if the particles is self interacting with that moving way front, then it can't ever get accelerated to a velocity faster than its own way from because it can't get any, you can't get any momentum transfer that's beyond its own its own propagation 11:24:07 velocity right. 11:24:09 Probably something like that. 11:24:10 Like it would you would actually probably the way from one to probably absorb some kind of energy from the particle tried to go faster than its own way from right i mean that's that's likely but yet for a number in quantum electrodynamics liking go faster 11:24:24 than light. 11:24:25 It's, it's allowed to light is allowed to change its velocity and quantum electrodynamics or change it speed, as long as it's for short enough period of time. 11:24:34 I don't have a time in my head I don't have a number in my head that says how often a quantum mechanical particle, and electrons would interact with this field, but I guess it would be at this trigger frequency, which would be. 11:24:50 I've got a number but I've got a number in symbols, okay, but it is a number, but I didn't calculate it, but I'm going to expect to that frequency is fast enough that you have a reasonable chance of having your photon travel at a faster or slower speed 11:25:10 actually hit things that's that's just going to be my guess is that you have a reasonable chance to get that. So apparently that frequency is something in like the 10s of milliseconds, that would mean that you've got plenty of time to violate the speed 11:25:24 of light for your photon between these bumps. 11:25:29 But I don't, but you know that's assuming again that these would be protons spontaneously doing stuff and however they're doing their thing. So I mean I don't, I don't really understand this a classical approach Alex and how it would interact with this 11:25:53 to get into that next leg and a future episode, I'd love to cover that subject. It's on our list, or it's on one of the lists, good since a now since right now I have three. All right, is there anything else that you wanted to talk about what this guy. 11:25:57 Did you want to go for me having to break this up into three episodes. 11:26:02 Well I did have a couple of questions. Okay, go ahead, uh one of my questions is, can pilot wave hydrodynamic replicate quantum entanglement. And that's if that that apparently hasn't been done yet, but I wanted to mention that it hasn't been done yet 11:26:15 because it's kind of an exciting thing and I'd love to see somebody do that. Yeah, I'd like to see how that would actually work I mean, in, in general, I guess what you need to do is you need to find a way to generate two particles simultaneously that 11:26:30 would maybe make kind of interferometer right in my calendar interferometer analogy, however you do that and I'm not really sure how you do it. 11:26:41 But But if you can do that you could use again correlations and you could look at those correlations. Unfortunately, with something like this Just like how long did it take for there to be the aspect experiment decades, was 20 years after Bell and bells 11:26:56 reformulation was like 20 years after boom boom first it or boom first formulated, something like that. So, and boom was another what 20 years after Einstein Rosen and. 11:27:12 So, it took a very long time to be able to do that and. And even after the aspect experimented took another decade for people to actually accept them as being, you know, pretty good, rather than something that could just be random fluctuations. 11:27:26 Yeah, but it occurred to me that maybe if you, if you had, if you could generate two particles. 11:27:33 l and have them interact, like start out at the same point somehow, and have them interact with the same, the same or initial wave front, then maybe that would be analogous to entanglement. 11:27:45 Because they would continue. So I think to have the certain cemetery until something broke that cemetery right, I have thought about that a little bit. 11:27:53 I think that's basically what you have to do is you just have to have them start off at the same spot now the question is is can you get them to have to obey all the same statistics. 11:28:05 I was going to say conservation loss, right, because the way that they generate these entangled particles for those particular experiments, you know what the spin of one will have to be for the other one, because of the conservation laws which means that 11:28:19 whatever is making them spin. If you wanted to make these little droplets spin and measure that spin. 11:28:26 Then what you'd have to do is you'd have to find some way to make them sort of come out of one thing with no nuts, angular momentum right but but break off into two things with angular momentum. 11:28:40 And, again, we'd have to know more about how this guy was able to create spin states in the first place, to figure out if that makes any sense that might be the whole reason why he's trying to figure out how to make the spin states, well there's another 11:28:51 paper that's cited in here by Hosea from 2014 which talks about the spin states so maybe we can look at that and mentioned in the future can probably take a peek at that I'm sure at some point will run out of our initial lists. 11:29:03 Every time we make one of these podcasts, we had three or four more things. 11:29:07 Sure, yeah I should be kicking making a list of that, but I I kind of been falling behind on that maybe as I listened through them, I will. I've got pieces of paper that, which is a really bad way to do things, but especially with me because I generate -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Wednesday, January 4, 2017


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Recorded: 2016/10/22 Published: 2017/01/04

Randy tells Jim about the emerging field of Phononics: using quantum particles of heat in materials for information processing in advanced materials.


The Review Article that we discussed here.

A reasonable YouTube speech on phononics, Prof Ben Eggleton - Phononics, the next wave.

Discuss on our subreddit.

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Transcript (Rough Draft; Added 2020/07/06)
09:20:59 So hey Randy. Hey Jeff So did you want to get us started off with some of this stuff about what pulling onyx is what we wanted to talk about fanatics is what we're going to talk about this time, and I think we're going to start off by comparing photonics 09:21:11 with some of the other technologies that we've seen with a lot of times people will talk about technology as if it's one giant edifice of applied science but in reality, there are many technologies around us that we use all the time. 09:21:25 And we know some of these electronics mechanics acoustics chemical engineering nuclear technology. So an onyx is a new arrival on the scene, there's some theoretical work and some basic experimentation that goes back a few decades but it really hasn't 09:21:39 started to gain any traction until maybe the last 10 years or so, maybe a little bit more than that, as material science and our ability to work with manufacturing at a molecular scale has gotten better and better. 09:21:52 So, looks like Electronics has different components. We've got a diode, that controls the electrical current to make so that it only goes in one direction, we've got transistors which created the entire computer revolution that allowed us to control like 09:22:07 a lot of the flow of electricity, using a gate. 09:22:13 On the there's logic circuits. 09:22:17 The there's logic circuits. The researchers working in phone onyx are now working on emulating those same behaviors, but instead of controlling electrical currents. they want to control the flow of vibrations through matter. 09:22:29 And that's what it all comes down to is unlike the electron is the fundamental unit for electronics, the phone on, which is a wave packet of energy that moves through matter is the basis of photonics. 09:22:43 And so how exactly is a fanatic of a setup. I mean, in an electronic device, what you want to do is you want to put a potential difference over something and then the output is correct. 09:22:51 That's right. And exactly the same thing applies with phone onyx because, unlike electrical energy. There aren't too many electrical potentials around us, we there's a tiller current that runs through the earth, it's a very small power. 09:23:07 There's electrical potentials that are very active during a lightning storms. Well, unlike, electronics, like, unlike those electronics, those electrical potentials photonics applies to us to the whole world around us there's thermal heat flows happening 09:23:22 all around us, between our homes and the outside world. In our car engines, and it really everywhere in the world has fallen on energy, because all of the matter around us has a temperature above absolute zero and so it vibrates with photons it's like 09:23:38 photons are like the noise inside matter that we feel is heat so how does the phone on different from a traditional heat wave like please big book was the analytical theory of heat, that's where his magic came from when he did he does this mathematical 09:23:52 magic where he can replicate any function with some of sine wave. In, he proved this with some mathematical magic and he proved this in a book on heat so we already knew, a very very long time ago. 09:24:05 200 years ago, maybe just 150. 09:24:15 Hundred and 50 years ago we knew that there were these waves in matter that were heat and these waves were basically mechanical energy. So, how do these photons differ from those way. 09:24:20 Well the photon is, is just really the building block of those waves right that's the phone ons are the normal modes of vibration inside matter before they all intersect and get super, Super positioned with each other to create a really unintelligible 09:24:36 signal inside matter right. Well, I kind of understood, pronouns to be, how would, how would you put this one on one of these lazy particle, there's this thing where you have this second quantization where you have a lot of things moving around in a harmonic 09:24:49 way. 09:24:50 If you look at those in the right way, you can make them look like particles. So, you can do this with anything that can be represented as a Fourier series. 09:25:00 Right. You can look at it, either as little excitations of energy, little particles, or as these large scale waves in the in this matter so these little displacements, that are harmonic in the material but they're like a pressure way they're like Soundwave 09:25:16 was moving through whoever in fact they're called sound pronouns are called sounds sometimes, researchers. So, so they're this artifice in some way of being able to represent something by employee a series you end up with something like the Schrodinger 09:25:32 equation, which means that you can represent them as little tiny particles, little tiny wave packets, really, that move around in the material. That's what I think of when I think of a phone is this little tiny wave packet of sound. 09:25:48 Yeah, I think that there's a tendency and in some literature that I've read to refer to it is elastic waves because there's a little bit of a difference between a phone on and an acoustic wave in the sense that the phone on has more degrees of freedom, 09:26:00 right, it can be transverse in two different directions and logic longitudinal. And I think that acoustic waves sound waves that we're normally used to thinking of is just through gases that only has the longitudinal aspect right. 09:26:13 I think that's going to be true if you're talking about through a gas but you do often talk about, you would talk about pressure waves to a solid even when you're in a solid, you have all the issues that come with having a regular array of atoms, that 09:26:25 means you have anisotropy is in different directions at least, if you have a regular and upper right right and it's interesting to see how the researchers are trying to harness, those different properties because it makes it harder to generate a technology 09:26:38 that will manipulate phone ons. And so they're looking at things like photonic crystals, which will constrain these vibration modes to just the ones that they want within whatever application that looking to try out, they have to find some very special 09:26:51 crystals, at least according to what we're reading for this. Right, right your average crystal I'll do it you've actually got to make a crystal with a molecular level to be bound just the way you want using just the materials that you want. 09:27:04 And so that all the architecture is custom engineered it's basically like a meta material. Oh, yeah that's that's what I was going to ask you, you know, are these actually meta materials so I mean some of the things I've seen, make it look that way but 09:27:16 they may just have been people using the materials to do it. The models that they use if you look at the appendix of this paper, the models that they use don't look like things that you'd have to have metamaterial to you, the two models that they use 09:27:50 are one, a model that slightly add harmonic so on top of having a square potential, which would be a harmonic potential Hey x squared is the harmonic potential they add on the quarter term the or B x to the fourth power term to the potential, that's what 09:27:52 they're calling the Frankel corner turnover, or sky this in this thing. 09:27:54 The second one they have is something called the fpu lattice and that's got even more people for me pasta one, I would not even going to try to spell that. 09:28:03 Well, it was a three different short names. The middle one is something you eat for dinner. 09:28:09 And then the first one is fer me like Enrico fer me. Yes. And that one is not really a minute material that that particular case seems to. 09:28:19 Oh, I've got them backwards, and the only positive one is the one with the quarter term, the other one is the Frankel corner for all the lattice in the Frankel current role the lattice is the one that mathematically simulates having a substrate. 09:28:35 So this and this is how you actually make a material for processing in the semiconductor industry, for example, right, is that you have a substrate of something which is usually silicon, then you put something else on top, but that substrate left. 09:28:49 That's afraid if it's oxidized that can be very very smooth, but often what you'll do is you'll put a layer of just sold and you'll take that oxide off. 09:28:58 And there are many reasons for this one is to try to get the atoms that you're putting on there in the exact right position that's called EPA taxi, and the other is that a lot of things that you put on something like silicon like that that so excuse me, 09:29:11 things you put on silicon silicon oxide, they'll have occasion issues because there's nothing to stick on, because that's what the oxide does is it basically smooths everything out so you can hook on to it. 09:29:23 In any event, you end up having this scientist soil potential that you put this stuff on. 09:29:28 So either one of those is not really metamaterial, so both of the ways that they put these together are things that are probably actually crew in regular material that you'd actually use so you, you are going to put these things on a substrate, you're 09:29:42 not going to try to have, you know, they're talking about graphene for example but you're probably not going to just have a free floating graphing circuit, because that's going to break, and then you're not going to have a device. 09:29:55 Right. On the other hand, this other one which is the harmonic for most things in the real world are only approximately. 09:30:08 If you had this huge lattice with all sorts of points all over the place you have additional terms in that potential, and those additional terms of that potential are going to end up being, you know these quarter terms and so forth and so on, they're 09:30:16 still going to be restoring forces but these additional terms are going to broaden out the potential well that keeps things in one spot. It does seem like it's a very tricky science to pioneer and one of the ways that that I've enjoyed looking at in studying 09:30:29 this was the way that they create like a macroscopic model, where they might have a series of steel cylinders. 09:30:38 Maybe a couple inches in diameter, embedded in like an elastic rubber, to try to experiment with a way that a acoustic Earth, you know these acoustic waves will pass through the that that um that material. 09:30:54 But the, the, I think the. 09:30:58 The idea is to try to figure out how to manufacture this kind of stuff at the nanoscale well yeah it's very interesting that they're doing this separately nanoscale I think it probably has to be done at nanoscale because of the wavelength of the vibrations 09:31:10 right, possibly, but apparently there's this guy named star who in 1936, built a junction made out of copper and an oxide phase on the other side, and he was able to get this thermal rectifier this thermal diode in a macroscopic system, likely that probably 09:31:29 doesn't do you much good, but he was able to do this, basically with a wire and some, he was able to create a junction that did this, and that's what they're talking about here basically is at a junction. 09:31:40 So when they're talking about these thermal diodes, for example, they're drawing these things out as extended things but really the action is right at the junction between two different kinds of material right they talk about that a little bit in this 09:31:52 colloquium paper, a phone phone onyx manipulating heat flow with electronic analogs and beyond, which came from the reviews of modern physics in 2012. 09:32:03 And they say, towards the conclusions that that's one of the areas that they have to work on is there isn't a good theoretical treatment, a global theoretical treatment of what these interfaces, how these interfaces work. 09:32:19 And so, a lot of it is still very experimental they have to try them out, that could remain for a very long time, even with their ideas and they seem to be doing a pretty good job, it looks like they've actually gotten thermal diode at the nanoscale for 09:32:30 example, and assembled diode, all the thermal diode means or the thermal rectifier. Same idea is that when you have something that's hot on one side and cold on the other, it will have some sort of heat flow between them, which is the same thing that 09:32:45 happens with your wall on a cold night, but if you switch it around so it's cold on one side and hot on the other less heat will flow the opposite direction that will be a barrier there for some reason it's quite interesting that took them a while to 09:32:58 get this to work this way I considering that somebody's already done it at the macro scale, but it makes sense when you're thinking about this in terms of phone right because phones end up having a spectrum in a material. 09:33:11 If you have a really big material, you basically a phone arms of all sorts. But once you start getting down to nanoscale materials, just like any other nanoscale system you start cutting off wavelengths, start cutting off frequencies of the different 09:33:25 possibilities that are actually there. And so you end up with a much more guess crystallized set of possible phone on frequencies, each part of the material. 09:33:35 So if you have that junction, then there may be some frequencies that are shared between the two different materials, and there may be in fact one of the materials ensures all of its frequencies with the other material but the other material has those 09:33:48 extra frequencies that aren't shared well phone on of that frequency of Kronos that wavelength, if it doesn't have a possible frequency and that other material, just bounce off and go back into the original material at that junction, and that's even without 09:34:00 any sort of imperfections or any of the other nastiness that happens in the real world. And that's one of the things that they're experimenting with with the photonic crystals, his band gap engineering, so that they can decide which frequencies will pass 09:34:13 through the material, and I guess in photonic circuit, that'll be an important, important thing to control. Well I think it's very important. Yeah, the way they have this it's important to be able to do that, just to get this thermal rectifier going this 09:34:30 thermal diode. 09:34:41 After you have that thermal diode. However, it looks like they're able to put a couple of these thermal diodes together and build their transistor. And if you have the transistor, the thermal transistor then just like in the real world of electronics, 09:34:48 right. Yeah, if you have a transistor you can build logic and you can build just about anything you want. Yeah, and I've been kind of musing about this today thinking about what it would be like to have a smartphone that was entirely running on phone 09:35:22 rather than electronics. And I was thinking about how well if that was if you had a phone like that you could probably just set it on the radiator to charge it up or leave it in the sun, possibly, I think, in general, you wouldn't have any issues with 09:35:16 that at all. If these things were actually doing something with the transport. The problem that you'd have is getting the thermal gradient, the difference difference between the two edges. 09:35:40 around all the time we just need to find a way to reliably get those gradients and and so that's really where the hard part is and I'm not sure how you're going to be able to do that although you might be able to use one of these energy harvesting methods. 09:35:52 So if you using one of these energy harvesting methods to do something with the electronics which as long as you're going to be using a antenna you're probably going to want to do, then what you're probably going to need to do is you're probably going 09:36:02 to need to fill your book probably going to be able to do is to choose where you pull off those photons, pull out that energy, so that you can power up the electronic parts. 09:36:15 And if you do that, then you'll have that thermal gradient. Well, that's what I'm really excited about is the opportunity to interface, the two different technologies, because every technology is going to have strengths and weak and other and weaknesses 09:36:28 and it seems like photonic technology opens up all kinds of fascinating doors for energy harvesting. 09:36:37 Imagine I mean, with all of the thermal currents and the heat energy around us if there was a way to to exploit that energy, then we would be able to run all our electronic devices and add new functionality to it with photonic technology, good to get 09:36:50 an energy harvesting working at scale, we could actually be integrated into our devices, then we'd be very far along, I'm not really sure how much you can harvest with these things I had an idea, a long time ago about how to do some of these things but 09:37:01 everybody else thought it was BS. And so I didn't pursue it down. Don't listen to them, Jim. Well you have to when they're your advisor. 09:37:10 The biggest question I have with all this is trying to build up a very, very large potential with energy harvesting. And I think that's something that we should we say for a later episode. 09:37:20 That's the worry for me with energy harvesting is not just getting the energy out is getting the energy out, you know, large enough amount to be able to do things with say consumer electronics, rather than to be able to do something like power, a receiver 09:37:36 for a memes circuit, it would be nice, even to be able to power up something so that you could close the loop on say a thermal actuator in a, in a micro electromechanical device. 09:37:49 But, you know, will be even better if you were able to power your computer, off of me and he will sure and with our electronic devices getting ever more efficient. 09:37:56 The energy requirements are dropping. Just as this technology is starting to emerge. And I've been looking at stochastic resonance energy harvesting, which is really fascinating. 09:38:11 You know you can take noise, really, of any kind, especially vibrational noises, and you can extract useful work useful energy out of us, I've used of these by stable systems by inputting a little bit of energy, so that you can multiply that energy, as 09:38:29 long as there's a noise and that you can tune your system to resonate within the right spectrum of that noise, you can actually pull energy out which seems to defy the second law of thermodynamics, but I think there's a non linearity involved that lets 09:38:44 you sort of circumnavigate that. 09:38:47 So, we may see that in our lifetime so that seems like something that's about to start happening is starting to see the systems and. 09:38:56 And what if we could, what if we could use that principle of Stark stochastic resonance energy harvesting at the level of molecular level through some kind of some kind of phone on a crystal device of some kind of solid state device. 09:39:10 So there's an awful lot of heat energy around us to tap into. Yeah, there's quite a bit so I mean it would be interesting to see how all this really works in the long run, but yeah that's another issue, I think we ought to get back to the information 09:39:38 processing aspects that we that we were talking about here in heaven, we have actually no other episode planned on that already. yeah there was some discussion in this colloquium paper about basically making the basic building blocks on the with the, 09:39:38 the goal in mind to having a phone on a computer, yeah yeah i think that's true and and one of those things that I was looking at I think that was something somebody else was looking at, that's basically what they're talking about here because, I mean, 09:39:50 in this paper, they had three things that they wanted to make, they had the thermal rectifier they had the thermal diode, then they also had the thermal transistor and the way the thermal transistor works, instead of to eat as now you have three, and 09:40:04 somehow you manipulate that third one, and that controls the energy flow around things now you have a control of this thermal current. So you can basically turn it on and off it's sort of like a switch. 09:40:16 It was fascinating to read about that it's, it's, it's such a nascent level of development that they're, they don't seem to be anywhere near the level of mastery over these kind of systems that we have over like an electronic transistor. 09:40:32 Right. But they're definitely on the right track and they definitely know how to get there. I mean they show you how they put the dials together, the thermal diodes together, really, it reminds me of sort of the level of detail you get environments lectures 09:40:44 on computation, rather than looking at these things and any of the other levels that I've seen right I've seen many, many things where they're talking about the fundamental aspects of physics of semiconductors, seen many, many things where they talk about 09:40:57 how logic works after he already built it in a computer, they're very, very few places that I've seen like that finds lectures on computation, where they take you from the basic physics through this intermediate level that seems to be left out, which 09:41:12 is, how do you actually build a device out of that basic physics, through the actual device itself and the level of this paper is very much at that same sort of web was five minutes, where these guys aren't telling you how to build a complicated thermal 09:41:24 processor they're not telling you really in too much detail about physics but they're saying, if we have some simple physics, we have the simplified physics, we have this you know one dimensional and harmonic model of material we modify those and harmonic 09:41:39 potentials in slightly different ways on either side of a junction, then we can build these devices at least theoretically, and here are some attempts that people have made to kind of sort of build some of them, and I mean there, there's data here there's 09:41:53 enough data here to say that, you know, these are things that you probably would be able to look at the fourth thing that they've put in here was memory they actually have memory system that they're talking about. 09:42:03 Yeah, that was really intriguing that was able to store information with the thermal circuit. Yeah, so it's not too difficult basically you have to have a place on your circuit, that's insulated when you want it to be insulated. 09:42:16 And, well, basically you end up with two of these diodes coming in and somehow balance out those things so that if you have the current basically going one way, if you if you have if you have this nonlinear going one way you trap all the energy at one 09:42:32 temperature, and you won't lose anything. And if it's going the other way you trap it at another temperature, and it's stuck there but if you're at some temperature in between, it moves off to one side or the other, obviously they generally show. 09:42:43 We right over at that temperature difference and then we right under, and the temperature difference for the high and most states is not very large it's like 10 degrees centigrade about 20 degrees Fahrenheit, it's really not very large with this temperature 09:42:57 differences that they have but it looks quite stable. 09:43:00 Now that's the part that that baffled me, it was why doesn't the memory just dissipate, are they talking about maintaining a constant input of fun on to maintain those temperature differences, or are they saying that you can, you would be able to leave 09:43:14 that sitting on a table without any energy going into it and it would still hold it to memory, the way I understood it was basically that if you equilibrate the two edges two sides, then the flow in will equal to flow out at two different temperatures. 09:43:29 So that sort of is sort of going to depend on how much or how many photons get in from either side of this memory so you have to have two inputs for temperature to get into the memory element in one output. 09:43:43 All right. And if those if those inputs are at the same temperature, then it's going to celebrate one of its to stable temperatures and which one it will depend on basically which one it's closer to, in some version of closer, but to change between them 09:43:56 you have to have a different on those two inputs, you have to have a different temperature difference. So you have to force it out of, out of its position and out of state into a new state in order to change the memory, nice. 09:44:07 It looks like there are four different diodes, basically thermal thermal resistors in this diagram, they've got here, unfortunately they put the diagram on top of a photograph or. 09:44:19 It's an SEM image, but they superimpose it on an SEM image, which makes me not be able to understand either one. 09:44:26 Well just went off for a little clarity sem is scanning electron microscope right. Yeah, physically what I understood was that they've got these two things coming in here with slightly different and harmonica cities. 09:44:39 And so you end up with two of these things that they call the negative differential resistance. do you understand what they meant by a differential resistance. 09:44:47 Well, isn't that, well, that requires an Ambien heat bath right because otherwise you would violate the second law of thermodynamics, as I understand it, so its borrowing energy from its ambient, and the environment. 09:45:01 Right, well I mean something like that's going to have to happen but basically what, what it means is that at a particular temperature, increasing the temperature for a particular temperature difference I should say, reduces the resistance, yeah will 09:45:30 difference you increase the current, but there's a point where by increasing the temperature difference you decrease the curve, and that point is where you have that negative differential resistance, and this is something that you can get in semiconductors 09:45:42 as well. Some things you can get in semiconductor Physics for electrons right for regular electrical current you can do things like this as well. and the very important. 09:45:51 Yeah, they were saying, This is the fundamental principle upon which the thermal diode and everything else is built upon yeah and you need to be able to do this, otherwise you end up having more and more heat current going through there so the current 09:46:07 just being time rate of change of the heat divided by the area of thinking, oh cut that out because nobody wants to hear that sort of model No, I think it's kind of interesting because you something to think about. 09:46:15 So anyways, that that negative differential resistance is very very important for this entire idea in the memory chip they had to have two things with different negative thermal resistance coming into the memory of that sort of the way I understood this 09:46:29 this whole reading this papers, is that you need to get through those things and I assume that you can just have some sort of output that will always be out putting something right because you're always going to have something coming in, which means you're 09:46:40 going to have to always have something going on right so it maintains a constant temperature. It's what's intriguing is to see how the geometry that plays such a key role in the design and effectiveness of these components, like they showed different 09:46:55 scanning electron microscope photographs of nanotubes that had one side were wider or reinforced with a heavier Adam, they had graphene wrapped into a cone shape, or just cut into trapezoidal geometries or carbon nano cones or graphene nano ribbons one 09:47:13 that was wrapped like a Moebius strip, it was just a pure geometry and the chemical properties of the body, the binding properties these materials, they created these effects for controlling the vibrations, it's it's a very visual and you know he's visually 09:47:36 Here's this nascent science where you can actually, you know, see the structures and get an intuitive sense for how the structures are playing a role in the transfer those vibrations. 09:47:47 This was also very strange because this is another place where we see that very famous, you know, again, people are very, very, very loose with this very phase idea, can you tell me about the berry phase idea that you're talking about. 09:48:00 It was very phase is phase accumulation in the wave packet due to whatever quantum mechanical instances you have. That's why it shows up in like topological insulators and things like that ends up being important for the quantum Hall effect, and stuff 09:48:15 like that but you know when people just talk about this very phase, since always in the material as far as I can tell, it's always geometrical in nature. 09:48:23 The first thing I'm thinking about when you say very phase is a phase of matter but it's not a phase of matter it's just an accumulation of phase, because of the, you know, quantum mechanical stuff going on because of the geometry, the geometry is causing 09:48:39 your way function as it reverses around something, the cumulative phase difference in whatever it is that it's accumulated phase differences here I don't really know where that phase is accumulating, I guess it's in the total heat current in quantum mechanics 09:48:54 thing that's accumulating that as a vector potential. I guess that's a different sort of idea, going into it, but still it's the same idea is that if you go around once this movie is this little Moby strip thing, right, this little movie scrapping strip 09:49:07 you go around that once, and you accumulate two pies worth of phase that shouldn't probably be detectable most of the time but does lead to real effects like again it turns into this phone call effect because of this very Phase I guess I think because 09:49:24 of this very phase I'm not completely sure because it's a couple of paragraphs, end up with this effect where these photons which are non charged particles which are not fermion, like an electron they, the second quantum particles will be a completely 09:49:38 different kind of statistics. They both statistics. So there's no reason why they should do anything at all like an electron, they're not charged, they obeyed different physical laws, except when you would have magnetic field on them, they turn. 09:49:54 There's no reason why a phone on to turn into magnetic field in my brain. Right, right. Yeah, it's hard to understand, that's something I'd like to see if we can find something interesting in that and just talk about that at some point in the future. 09:50:08 But still, that's something that's happening because of the geometry in these things and it's something that seems to be important in actually designing some of these things like they're doing this on some sort of organic molecule in one of these examples, 09:50:22 but the geometrical phase that they're talking about looks exactly like some sort of benzene ring or something like that. 09:50:29 Yeah, I'm kind of baffled I don't really understand, there's a diagram in this paper that shows a plane with the hot side in the cold side. And that's what a magnetic field in the y axis, and the heat flow has a preferential direction, that Ben's it from 09:50:47 a 90 degree angle from the hot to the cold, that's this whole effect thing yeah it's baffling like why that direction that doesn't, how can you have a preferred direction if it doesn't have a magnetic field there is electrical field. 09:50:58 Yes, it doesn't have any rationale as far as I can see, for a couple into a magnetic field, because a phone on does not have an electrical charge, so it's not providing an electric current or anything like that. 09:51:10 It's just keep moving through, through the material, but you can bend the heat, that's another thing that might be really really interesting might be able to do wonders for people's bills by building paint out of this stuff, and making the heat circulate 09:51:24 around the room instead of going out through the wall. That's right, yeah I don't have any idea why this would actually be I mean this is something that apparently somebody predicted, long time ago, maybe not a long time ago but many years before it actually 09:51:36 actually came about. So it was in a pair of magnetic dielectric. Right. And the important thing about that is, is that a pair of magnet each atom inside of the, maybe this is how it actually works right so each atom inside of a pyramid is magnetised each 09:51:53 atom and appear a magnet has a magnetic moment, whereas there are other materials called Daya magnets, which do not carry a magnetic moment unless it's induced by a magnetic field, and those working exactly the opposite way so basically add her magnet 09:52:23 be attracted to, to a very strong magnetic field and the diet magnet will be repelled by it, but it has to be a lot stronger than your refrigerator magnet, you know in Florida, they have these giant spinning electromagnets that's how you get a field strong enough to really see an effect on one of these things and you know levitate your 09:52:28 of these things and you know levitate your frogs. Well it looks I'm looking I'm looking at this section right now about this effect and it seems like they're still trying to work it out that there's several competing explanations and one of them is that 09:52:40 this effect derives from the magnetic vector potential in ionic crystal lattices, where the lack of vibration of atoms with an effective charge will experience a Lorenz force. 09:52:49 And there's another one here it says better results from a ramen spin orbit interaction. 09:52:54 I guess there's a spin phone on a coupling that they're still working on to figure out, so I was wrong about that the dielectric part is also important, right so dielectric is basically an insulator. 09:53:05 That's important because otherwise the electrons would carry the heat away, you couldn't tell if the electrons are carrying the heat away then you think would be the things that are bending in the field when they're moving. 09:53:16 Right. So yeah, they, they had a couple of these different things, things here to talk about them in some place they were talking about a ballistic heat effect, you understand what ballistic means in this case, I thought that it just meant sort of like 09:53:29 a photon traveling through space and said it traveled as a as a as a unit as a packet of energy along given vectors that right so ballistic transport basically means that what happens to your phone on in this material for a particular kind of photos, 09:53:44 that when it travels, it hits a spot where the phone on frequency or the phone on wavelength exactly matches the lattice wavelength of your material, so that now it just takes off in a straight line and doesn't scatter off anything, so that's ballistic 09:54:02 transport, unlike what usually happens with an electron, or a phone on which is it scatters off of everything, and so you get sort of a net push in some direction right but it just it's disperses I'm intrigued by this because it made me wonder I wonder 09:54:17 what kind of energy storage capabilities might arise from photonics, you know we we really struggle with electronics. I mean you've got batteries, which are via chemical energy that real limited amount of energy you can store they're just capacitors that 09:54:33 you can temporarily store energy and and maybe, maybe more long term but it's there's still real limits to the energy density, but I wonder if an onyx will give us another way to store energy. 09:54:44 You know, I wonder if there's if there's a way to design maybe like a total phone on a crystal, where the heat energy could just circulate indefinitely without, without dissipating. 09:54:55 There might be a way to do something like that, but I think you'd end up with some issues I think probably the closest thing you're going to see to that is this sort of memory that they're talking about, if they can build this memory, they're already 09:55:09 building something very much like that because it's storing energy in the form of its memory so that memory is staying at one particular temperature, and it's stuck there, you're never going to be able to get something that say, you put something in and 09:55:22 drops away right, or you put something in stays there no matter how much stuff you put in right because soon you'd end up with something that's 700 Kelvin or 8000 Kelvin or 10,000 Kelvin I mean it just things would find a way in but they wouldn't find 09:55:37 a way out. Right, so you'd hit you'd you'd have to at some point have some sort of dissipation thing. Yeah, well that's exactly what's going on in this memory, right this minute this memory element that they've got they've got some way to take that extra 09:55:50 temperature and let it dissipate and then stay at whatever temperature that was so they have something similar to that now may not be optimized for what you want it to do it may be at to lower temperature, but it's just that to lower temperature then 09:56:04 it's just a materials issue, some engineering problem, right, but it is a. 09:56:10 It sounds like you're talking about basically the, the photonic equivalent of a capacitor, because you've got a higher potential on one side than the other. 09:56:19 It's not that different. I think what you're really talking about is something like the photonic equivalent of flash memory. So it's, but it's close enough because coming that's all flash memory really is is a sticky capacity, I don't really know how 09:56:32 flash memory works I've never studied it. 09:56:34 But, and you're the one who worked at it the magnetic storage company right yeah and if you listen to my description so it and understand it, flash memory is not magnetic oh it's not see that's the thing I don't know what flash memory is that's why I 09:56:47 why I wanted to ask you I thought that I thought it was magnetic yeah it's completely electrical in nature, they basically just for a little bit of charge on something and take its ability way to disappear it before they take off the potential that is 09:57:09 a bad, bad, bad description. But, well I'm only looking for a rudimentary understanding so that's that'll do. All right. Okay. But anyway. You're kicking yourself. 09:57:14 Yeah, so that's pretty much what I've what I've got on whatever it was, we were talking about, we're talking about, well, we were talking about the memory, and you're talking about house. 09:57:23 Okay. Oh, you were talking about storing this stuff yeah so. So yeah, that's all I really got I'm using something like this to store energy for very very long period of time, if the memory works, then you'll be able to store energy in some way and I'm 09:57:38 not sure how much. I'm not sure how useful it will be compared to other technologies. And that's something I think we have to think about when we're talking about technologies and something like the phone onyx as a technology, is that not only does it 09:57:51 have to work, not only does it have to do these cool things like you know couple to write photons coupled of light, because I could imagine you could have some kind of a display with a phone onyx right because it couples two photons, there's mechanical 09:58:04 crystals and things. 09:58:06 So, couldn't you make it like some kind of visual display like a monitor using fun onyx, you might be but just like any other technology that you'd want to use with it you would have to be 10 times as good or 10 times cheaper than whatever it is we have. 09:58:20 I mean, but oh yeah i'm not saying to compete, if this stuff works, then that might be viable, I let me think I think the interesting thing here was that the wavelength of the photons are like optical wavelengths. 09:58:38 Well, well, the wavelengths of the photons at optical frequencies are nano skill. 09:58:46 Inside the nano scale size of the photonic wavelength. 09:58:50 Inside the nano scale size of the photonic wavelength, the nano scale size of the photon because the photons got a wavelength of something around 407 hundred nanometers, on the order of the wavelength of most heat, but that actually has a very large way 09:59:22 right, the frequency is what's making things jump up and down, right, the frequency of the change of the electric field is going to cause some sort of change in the molecular vibrations right it's not the wavelength of the thing that's going to do that. 09:59:39 I think I'm going to have to cut this out because I don't remember exactly how it worked well I'm trying to I'm trying to think. I think that an optical light frequency moving through a vacuum has a similar wavelength, to the photonic vibrations in a 09:59:55 solid, because the speed of vibrations through a solid is so much slower. That's something like that yeah it's like 1000, it's like only 1000 meters per second. 10:00:05 Yeah, oh yeah, 300 300 meters per second so i think so I think the wavelength is similar right. Yeah, I just don't remember. Fair enough. I was listening to guy talking it and yeah that's important to remember that makes this important remember. 10:00:21 That's important to remember. And of course I got it all mixed up in my head and I can't remember which one. But isn't that that is that how often mechanical crystals work is that light shines on them. 10:00:30 And because, and they can couple to the crystals, because the crystal oscillate. I would think that would have to be a frequency that's in the frequency spectrum of the material, right, which would mean that it's the frequency that's important, that the 10:00:46 wavelength, the frequency is the energy, not the wavelength. So if you were switching between different yeah so I think if you're coupling at the wavelength level which would mean your wavelengths were the same. 10:01:00 A be switching frequencies and if you're switching frequencies, then you'd be switching energies of the oscillations. So, that would mean best, you would be able to do it one way but not the other way you'd be able to get photon input to the photonic 10:01:11 device without output, but the energy is also going to be affected because you're talking about moving materials with a mass right. So if it dropped the frequency, but it was moving more matter what if the energy still be the same. 10:01:26 I think that's already taken care of in the opponent's. 10:01:30 I think that's already taken care of in the opponent's your colon spectrum already assumes that your atoms have met. So, the photons spectrum will have that frequency, based on the mass of the material, in part, it's going to be much more detailed than 10:01:47 that, because it's a spectrum spectrum with peaks and valleys and things based on lattice constants and stuff like that, but it is going to be based on the material properties of the lattice frequency the frequency match should be the thing that does 10:02:05 the coupling. The wavelength should be the thing that you get for free, but that means that you're going to end up with, probably a much larger, much smaller wavelength of a phone on that is that doesn't make much sense, because the heat wavelengths, 10:02:21 the IR wavelengths are very, very large right infrared wavelength is very, very large, which is where you'd expect most of this fact, actually that's exactly the frequencies that you would not want to operate something like this, right, because we just 10:02:34 create more noise for the system, it would overheat itself right there was something about there were, it seemed to me like there had to be at least three regimes, right where you have a long wavelength regime, a short wavelength regime, and sort of intermediate 10:02:50 wavelength regime so you know if you have that long wavelength regime, there's not really much you can do with phenomena. I've came across, they mentioned at one point, phone on polarity. 10:03:00 They were talking in its they described that as the interaction of optical phone ons with infrared photons. Not really sure what an optical phone on is I guess it would be a phone on with an optical frequency, but I mean would that mean that you'd be 10:03:12 able to see it as light or no you can't you can't see, you can't see it as like, it would have a frequency of light that seems like a really high frequency. 10:03:20 So, but but they're saying that, since that's an interaction, they must have a similar energy level right the infrared photon must be equivalent to an optical phone on. 10:03:28 Yeah, the opposite. So you're so you're right the photons would have a higher frequency, when they interact with light. Let's talk about the technological implications for photonics I think right now there's a company called photonics somewhere in the 10:03:41 states that's manufacturing, some kind of special thermoelectric solid state cooling systems for hospitals and labs and things like that, I guess you can get a really high precision control of your refrigeration system that way. 10:03:57 But there's also some other prospects on the future which I think are really interesting. They mentioned the brownie and motor. At one point, that's interesting. 10:04:06 Isn't that the like a molecular scale motor that gets ratcheted forward I think Fineman might have talked about this. By the by the random vibrations of the material around it. 10:04:18 Yeah, Brownian ratchet. So basically it's something that can move one way or another, I think that's another thing that will be talking about it's really sort of thing where it's really the way that the energy harvesting work so I mean the thermal ratchet 10:04:31 ratchet is something that will really be talking about with the energy harvesting I think that's basically all that is is that if some and I suffer pain in the material, so that you know you can move one way but not the other way. 10:04:45 And that's why, you know, the thermal ratchet or browning ratchet or something like that is the way they talk about it is, that's the way you get energy out of these things right out of you is the that so that that ratchet system is, is the that's the 10:04:59 asymmetry that you introduced to the system so that you can get it to do work for you. Yeah. Wow, that's cool. They also talked about a couple of fascinating ideas I guess this also kind of bridges into the realm of metamaterials but they mentioned heat 10:05:12 cloaks. 10:05:13 Like, I guess it's like an invisibility cloak but in the infrared spectrum. 10:05:19 And in focused heat rays. 10:05:20 So you could coupled, I guess to the atmosphere and send the laser beam of almost a heat energy at something that's kind of creepy it's almost like a, like a Tesla death ray can imagine just cooking somebody from, you know, the distance. 10:05:36 They talked about thermal the insulated buildings with a really high efficient insulators because when onyx is the mastery of that heat energy right so the amount of energy efficiency that you could get would be incredible. 10:05:49 And then there's of course, the transforming of waste heat from industry. 10:05:56 And I guess even like your car engine and things like that directly into electricity, and I is one of the papers mentioned earthquake protection but I think that again that crosses over into the metamaterials because vibrations of that frequency of like 10:06:08 earthquake frequency. 10:06:11 You're going to need a larger scale system right well yeah so would not get into metamaterials because metamaterials are generally very small things. Okay, so metamaterials are generally here you tailor key geometrical objects at the nano scale in, generally, 10:06:30 you know, large arrays, probably not necessarily but generally large arrays of objects so you'd make, say, lots of little nickel seas, or something like that and you embed them in copper, and that would give you some special way of doing something or 10:06:47 other, so earthquake for a building would, would be just a big phone on it component that would basically be band gap engineered, so that the vibrations from an earthquake wouldn't be able to shake the building apart is that right, I guess so. 10:07:01 I mean I yeah I didn't read the applications very much because usually the applications are just anything they can make up to make make it sound like it's applied right it's a little early within this technology to have any idea about where it's going 10:07:14 to head but I guess you're trying to figure out, well, these are plausible directions to go in, because you don't really know until you get there. One of the other things that they mentioned that was interesting was the way that they're experimenting 10:07:24 with manufacturing and MIT was talking about using interference lithography through photosensitive fluids. 10:07:32 I thought that was fascinating. 10:07:40 You get different laser beams intersecting in a plane. And then I guess those that that activates the photo sensitive fluid fluids so that you can very precisely control positioning and thickness of the, the material that condenses out of that fluid mess 10:07:54 sounds pretty cool yeah I guess they've been pioneering that up there, they get to do all the fun stuff at MIT, when they think of all the fun stuff. 10:08:03 Did you Did you see anything else interesting in this when we went over fun onyx. I think we probably hit everything that we really need to hit especially if we're going to visit this at least twice more. 10:08:13 Well thank you so much for going over this with me tonight Jim Fox seems like really interesting new, new technology. yeah it was great. Talk to you again.
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