Thursday, January 26, 2017

Pilot Wave Hydrodynamics

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Recoded: 2016/11/20 Published: 2017/01/20

In this episode, Randy and Jim discuss pilot wave hydrodynamics, a physical analogy to quantum mechanics. In it, a small droplet bounces atop a fluid, interacting with its own wave. This allows macroscopic experiments which display many of the properties of quantum mechanics, such as self-interference in a doubles slit experiment. This is equivalent to the de Broglie-Bohm interpretation of quantum mechanics that Jim and Randy talked about in the second episode and a little in the main podcast, as well as the quantum interpretations special (that currently needs re-editing).

Show Notes:

1. The review paper by John W. M. Bush that forms the basis of the discussion.

2. The videos by Veritasium and Smarter Every Day that we refer to in the podcast second episode and just before we recorded this.

3. Both John Bush and Anders Andersen seem to have found no evidence of interference in properly controlled experiments, as described inQuanta Magazine.

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Transcript (Rough Draft; Added 2020/07/06)
10:16:26 This week's episode of physics frontiers, we're going to talk about pilot way of hydro dynamics, okay so pilot wave hydrodynamic, this is something that has to do with this broken a bone interpretation of quantum mechanics right this is not interesting 10:16:40 just because of whatever it is this pilot wave thing. That's right We brought this up. We mentioned at one time in our to Berkeley bone deploy the bone pilot wave interpretation of quantum mechanics, and it's a fascinating experiment, and it's shed a 10:16:55 lot of light, I think, on a possible new model, a new interpretation of quantum mechanics just by being a macroscopic phenomenon, it's really kind of fun to watch and very tempting by the way to have around the house to show your friends, so we decided 10:17:10 that we were going to dedicate an episode to just these wonderful oil drop experiments that emulate quantum mechanical behavior in a way that is nobody had anticipated is being possible until you've called coup de, and the manual for it came up with it 10:17:26 it in round 2006, what are the properties of this hydrodynamic wave that make it look like quantum mechanics. Well let's first talk about a description of what the experiments entail well yeah that's what I'd like to know so what is it about these pilot 10:17:40 waves that is actually doing something that acts like quantum mechanics. Well, the wonderful thing about the oil drop experiments and if you've seen the video and I guess we'll have a link maybe on our blog so that you can see these is if you agitate, 10:17:53 a bath of oil, and you drop the little beads of a little droplets of oil on top of that vibrating oil bath. When they bounce they create waves and the particle interacts with its own waves from its impacts with the oil, and that creates a whole new range 10:18:11 of behaviors that we've never seen before in classical mechanics, things like being able to emulate the double slit experiment. We're using a single particle, going through the double slit experiment and creating an interference pattern on the other end. 10:18:27 So it's this interaction between the self generated waves on the surface of the oil and the droplet that creates these, these behaviors. And it turns out that you can extend this pretty significantly to create all kinds of wonderful behaviors that we 10:18:45 had only thought existed in the realm of quantum mechanics, until this experiments came out. So, these things that this oil dropped. 10:19:05 can tunnel through something that's somewhat like a barrier we'll talk a little bit more about that because that was one of the big questions that I. 10:19:18 Hi Lauren Can you hear me. 10:30:44 This week's episode of physics frontiers, we're going to talk about pilot way of hydro dynamics, okay so pilot wave hydrodynamic, this is something that has to do with this broken a bone interpretation of quantum mechanics right this is not interesting 10:30:57 just because of whatever it is this pilot wave thing. That's right We brought this up. We mentioned at one time in our to Berkeley bone deploy the bone pilot wave interpretation of quantum mechanics, and it's a fascinating experiment, and it's shared 10:31:13 lot of light, I think, on a possible new model, a new interpretation of quantum mechanics just by being a macroscopic phenomenon, it's really kind of fun to watch and very tempting by the way to have around the house to show your friends, so we decided 10:31:28 that we were going to dedicate an episode to just these wonderful oil drop experiments that emulate quantum mechanical behavior in a way that has nobody had anticipated as being possible until you've called coup de, and the manual for it came up with 10:31:43 it in round 2006, what are the properties of this hydrodynamic wave that make it look like quantum mechanics. Well let's first talk about a description of what the experiments entail. 10:31:53 Well yeah, that's what I'd like to know so what is it about these pilot waves that is actually doing something that acts like quantum mechanics. Well, the wonderful thing about the oil drop experiments and if you've seen the video and I guess we'll have 10:32:05 a link maybe on our blog so that you can see these is if you agitate, a bath of oil, and you drop a little beads of of a little droplets of oil on top of that vibrating oil bath. 10:32:19 When they bounce they create waves and the particle interacts with its own waves from its impacts with the oil, and that creates a whole new range of behaviors that we've never seen before in classical mechanics, things like being able to emulate the 10:32:37 double slit experiment. We're using a single particle, going through the double slit experiment and creating an interference pattern on the other end. 10:32:45 So it's this interaction between the self generated waves on the surface of the oil and the droplet that creates these, these behaviors. And it turns out that you can extend this pretty significantly to create all kinds of wonderful behaviors that we 10:33:03 had only thought existed in the realm of quantum mechanics, until this these experiments came out. So, these things that this oil drop can do our single particle diffraction that's basically what you're talking about here with the double slit experiment, 10:33:18 you can tunnel through something that's somewhat like a barrier we'll talk a little bit more about that because that was one of the big questions that I had in the previous episode. 10:33:26 It also has Quantcast orbits and orbital level splitting as well that's actually interesting how that shows up, and there's a claim here that this also has been states but I wasn't really clear in the reading. 10:33:39 Exactly how these were spin states, there is angular momentum in this that I've been I saw on some of these experiments and and theoretical developments, but I didn't see anything that looks like a spin state for the oil droplet, but those are the five 10:33:53 things that this guy Bush, who wrote this paper that paper will also be in the show notes. That's right, we're looking at a 2014 mit paper by john Wm Bush, called pilot way of hydro dynamics, so those five things were the five things that he claimed that 10:34:09 you could see and it pretty good descriptions of the first four in different states, I think all of them had some sort of experimental actualization, but he also had theoretical reasons for each one of them. 10:34:22 I don't remember him hallucinating. This spin states either but he did refer to a paper by omega, which was published in the same year as this paper so maybe, maybe had been to recent for him to just to treat it in his paper. 10:34:35 Yeah, we'll just have to look at that and see what they mean by spin states in that case so Bush's a mathematician, as I understand it, so it's kind of interesting to see this come out of the mathematics department, rather than the physics department, 10:34:49 although I mean it's not too strange in in graduate school, there was this book I kept going back to in the library. 10:34:58 That was very very interesting to me because what it was is it was actually a German philosophy book that was in the Science Library in the hydrodynamic section, and went through three competing theories of hydro dynamics, it seems like hydro dynamics 10:35:18 split at some point between practical theoretical and even more theoretical issues between an engineering viewpoint physics viewpoint in a mathematics viewpoint. 10:35:28 And on top of that, the three of them don't actually agree. So there are three ways to develop Hydra dynamics, and they all work in different regimes, based on how and in what ways you want to actually work but this guy put together this review paper 10:35:42 over these experiments over the past 10 years or so I guess eight years, when he wrote it, and we just went through and talked about basically these walking droplets called paradise haters bouncing around on sort of a self similar or little droplets of 10:35:57 oil on the same oil. Basically, bouncing around above the oil, the same kind of oil, you know I was, I wondered when I was when I was looking at these experiments and in. 10:36:09 Sometimes the oil droplet can get absorbed into the oil. Why don't they just use like a, like a droplet of water, bouncing on oil baths so that they won't get absorbed that i don't know i mean maybe just to keep the oil Queen and you know with all the 10:36:23 the same properties and stuff like that. As far as I know there's no rationale for it but there may be some problem with the absorbers and stuff like that so I mean it seems to be very very particular about when you can actually get the Walker, but see 10:36:37 that's the thing is I think that maybe if they tried something else like either a different kind of fluid which can't be absorbed by the oil, or maybe even a solid object like a little hollow sphere, then they wouldn't have that problem of the absorbing 10:36:48 right that's possible you could have like a little silica ball, doing the same thing, I assume, but it might not react in the same way, because you really have three different things going on in these droplets you have the ball bouncing up and down, you 10:37:02 have the reaction to that ball that's waving around in in the oil bath. The surface is kind of agitated because the wave bath is being vibrated that's important is that we have to have that vibrational frequency going on, they're coming from an outside 10:37:16 source, right. So basically there's a limit, the third a threshold. So we've got this oil in a container, that's on top of a big speaker that speakers being vibrated it apparently low frequency, and I think it's the amplitude of that is going to be increased 10:37:33 and as adding amplitude of the vibration increases as the sound gets louder from that speaker basically although it's not really that loud, as compared to how loud I originally thought it would be. 10:37:43 You make that louder and louder until just see those ripples coming out, you see a bunch of ripples on the surface of the oil and then you go back down under that spot where it's rippling so you don't want to see those ripples going to be right at that 10:37:57 spot, just below where it's going to going to create a large array of ripples in water. So wait, I thought they were visible though because when you sent me that other video. 10:38:09 Just recently, showing the water experiments, you could see the sort of standing waves on the surface when they did the water droplets on top, but they were, but they weren't strong enough to actually like break. 10:38:21 They weren't they weren't strong enough to create like bubbles or anything. Yeah, according to this, you want to be just below the point where you can see them, possibly if you're just at the point where you can see them, it still works. 10:38:32 The closer you are to that 30 threshold, the longer the droplets exist, I guess, if you were exactly at that third a threshold, and if you had, you know, perfect droplets and and stuff like that. 10:38:45 just bounce around forever. If you could get the perfect frequency, and you could get the that never shifted even a tiny, tiny amount. 10:38:58 And if every droplet was perfectly spiritual all the time and all that other stuff. I think that's the theory behind it. So yeah, you need to have that perfectly at that threshold, which is kind of interesting because what you're trying to do is you're 10:39:10 trying to get the, the amount of time that the droplet is pushing against the air in between it and the fluid between the droplet and the surface, you want that to be less than the amount of time for all the air to drain out from between the droplet and 10:39:28 the fluid. You do remember the name of that was that like relax relaxation time It started with an R, you remember the term they used for that. I do not see that in my notes that was it. 10:39:42 And then, that wasn't in the, in the paper it was in that video that you sent me about what the where they tried to do this with water because water will do this too, but it doesn't they don't those droplets don't last as long. 10:39:52 there is a relaxation time for how long you know these, these things will happen, a relaxation time is just how much time it's going to take for, I think one over, he might depend on how they define it but a relaxation time should be the amount of time 10:40:05 for a little bit more than 30% of the air in between the droplet and the surface to evacuate. That's an exponential process, but if that relaxation time is too quick, then you're not going to have enough time for the carrier part of the ball to do the 10:40:24 bouncy part right so the fluid has to perform during that balance right, so it will perform like a, just like a ball does so it deforms, and it's stretching out the surface and then the surface tension is says I don't like this, I want to be a sphere 10:40:40 right so it pushes back, and then that's what propels the ball back up. So propels the problem back up, but if the air brains out before it can do that full cycle, then it just pops back into the water. 10:40:53 That's why you need to take into account that relaxation time for the air in the water, I see I see on the video now where they say this, they call it the residence time is the time that it will hang out on top of the water before it, or the fluid before 10:41:06 it gets reabsorbed okay so that's a completely different thing although it's not a completely different thing it is a different related Yeah, okay. With this experiment, we get, like we talked about the double slit experiment. 10:41:17 So the you with a single particle this oil bouncing on its own wave with a barrier that has two slits in it for the particle to bounce through the amazing thing is is that when it, it'll pick one of the two slits to go through, but it will create the 10:41:33 interference pattern on when it hits the far barrier on the far side. That's exactly the same as quantum mechanical behavior that you see with the electronics and photon double slit experiment. 10:41:45 So, this was that was the real eye opener that I think you've coup de and manual for started with, and then they expanded it, and they found that you could emulate things like tunneling, they would put a barrier, just under the surface of the oil, and 10:42:03 that created like an energy barrier for the particle, so that most of the time, it would veer away from that area. 10:42:13 And then other times, it would jump over it. So then you had it, then you had an analog for quantum tunneling also, which is the phenomenon where a particle like a photon or electron can spontaneously leap through a thin layer of matter to get to the 10:42:31 other side. Yeah, that's the interesting thing and this is the question that I had previously was, how would you model that, in this case and so when I think of timeline I'll think of something like in a tunneling diode, right and how a ton of tunneling 10:42:46 diode works is you would have, let's say two bits of metal, right, either side of the tunneling barrier, and in between there, you'd have an insulated. 10:42:57 And so you have a physical barrier, a real physical barrier that completely breaks up the material that the electron is traveling in, and you know that electron can actually tunnel through that barrier go from one end to the other. 10:43:11 If that barriers small enough, but it decreases in probability to go from one side of the barrier, the other side exponentially, or approximate approximately exponential. 10:43:20 And so, you don't really have to get very very thick for that to be almost zero, right, so that even though you're trying to send you know tend to the 16 electrons through a piece of wire, you know you still only have a slight probability that any of 10:43:38 them will get through, you don't you're not even guaranteed one getting through when you have 25 to 50 nanometers worth of insulator in there and he at that point you're not seen any tunneling anymore You have to have something that's very very thin in 10:43:51 range of a couple of nanometers and most right it didn't even become a significant engineering consideration, until we are building micro processors so small that they were at that level, where you're looking at your conductor being separated by an insulator 10:44:09 by less than, you know, a few nanometers. Yeah, that's the only way that you can have that sort of thing there what they've put in here, the way they've got this barrier is the barrier is still under the fluid, it's just gets very very close to the surface 10:44:25 of the fluid and that changes the way, rather than looking like tunneling if you just looked at the fluid it doesn't look like tunneling it looks more like a reflection or changing the wave barrier, it looks like a reflection, if you look in how the wave 10:44:40 is reacting. Sure, which is exactly what you'd expect you ever reflection. This thing's very very close you still have some transmission, right. So, and this is, this would be something that's normal in physics. 10:44:53 If you have a barrier like that, if you were to have an electromagnetic wave go from one crystal to another crystal, then some of that light will transmit into the other crystal and some of it will reflect off of it, and that'll depend mainly on the match 10:45:07 of the dielectric constant of the two materials, mainly I mean you can look at it in other ways, but that's that's the main way to look at it, and so that is what it looks like, is going on here, the argument that I'd see there is that this quantum fluid 10:45:22 however this quantum fluid is seen has to somehow permeate through these barriers and I'm not really sure how the quantum fluid is really going to work but there has to be something about this quantum fluid that the particle is interacting with you are 10:45:52 talking when you say quantum fluid Do you mean are you talking about, in, in, I'm not really sure what you're talking about. So let's say we have this hydrodynamic analogy. 10:45:47 Okay, so this is a hydrodynamic analogy, we have a droplet, we're looking at the oil drop experiments okay yeah so the. So we have this thing that we call a walker and the hydrodynamic analogy, gotta walk the Walker is the droplet, plus the way in quantum 10:46:03 mechanics, what we have is what we call a particle that particle is the Walker. All right. It's the droplet, or it's an electron, or a photon or something yeah so you have your electron, or your photon, but in the analogy it's still going to be what's 10:46:19 called a quantum particle or dual right if the analogy holds up, then what you have is some sort of quantum fluid. You mean like the zero point fluctuations, the vacuum fluctuations, that's a possibility, so you'd have that plus you'd have whatever the 10:46:36 particle is or the fluctuations in the field. Plus, the particle not the food itself but the fluctuations in the fluid fluctuations in the fluid, plus the particle makeup, the quantum particle, but that means that, but personality to work that means that 10:46:52 that quantum fluid, whatever that is, has to be something that permeates through matter which shouldn't be hard for anything on the quantum level. So, I mean because matters just a bunch of empty space basically with some little tiny point so right stuff 10:47:10 in the middle. 10:47:12 So, so that shouldn't be too difficult. A analogy, but it's still a little bit hard to envision exactly how this works as a barrier. I mean if you just look at this it's hard to do that because if you were to look at a basic quantum mechanics book. 10:47:28 Well, you'd be looking at is, instead of having a partial barrier like this. So you do have to do problems like this, right where you have some sort of level, some sort of energy level and then you have a barrier that's below that energy level, but very 10:47:41 very close and you can look at the transmission or reflection, but on the other hand, you can also do things in that quantum mechanics book where that energy barrier would be above the fluid or above the energy level of the electron, and you'd still have 10:47:56 to go through. So, well you have to do is not think about that, because this fluid level, I think, is not the energy level and those diagrams, which are created for some other reason but that's what you're going to think about if you've been trained, 10:48:11 you know to do quantum mechanics. That's the first thing you're going to think about is, here's my energy level. I have a barrier that it's tunneling through that barrier has to come out of the fluid, but probably, that's just an issue with the depiction 10:48:26 of the energy levels, as compared to the physical realization this particular experiment, they know I'm, I don't know if they've done that experiment where you have a barrier that physically comes up higher than the fluid, but it seems to me that if you 10:48:38 fired you're bouncing droplet fast enough, at a net and narrow enough boundary that was coming out of the oil that it should be able to overcome the momentum that it picks up from its own reflected waves when it approaches the barrier and balances high 10:48:53 enough in order to get over that barrier. That was what I was originally thinking, would be was happening so if he listened to me. 10:49:00 If you listen to me ramble on. In the previous episode or two or three episodes ago about the pilot wave theory. Yeah, if you listen to me ramble on about the pilot wave theory. 10:49:09 I'm going to probably say something like that, unless I cut it out, but that's definitely what I was thinking, would have to be the way you did the tunneling barrier. 10:49:19 But that's not the way it's realized here, or when other people talk about this sort of thing, right. So, that's not what they want to do, there might be some practical issues that have to do with that like what might happen in that case, a lot of the 10:49:33 time is something that wouldn't happen in quantum mechanics, which is the oil will splash up on top of the barrier and just you know what the top of the barrier, and not do anything real right you'd lose your particle, because of, you know, real physical 10:49:47 effects. Sure. All right, you know, might make it, you know, I'd like to try that experiment. 10:49:53 Let's move on to bounded states of droplet pairs that's pretty fascinating. That is interesting that they can, they can actually orbit each other, right, just because of this self interaction between the waves. 10:50:04 Yeah, yeah so and that's again how quantum particles would have to interact in this thing is that the waves would have to make their little interference pattern the droplets hit on top of them. 10:50:16 And then they bounce off and whatever strange Russians they happen to bounce off or the particles would be or off in other directions, and if you get things just right obviously they keep bouncing around in such a way that the orbit each other, just chaotic. 10:50:29 I'd swear, I remember reading an article where a while back about being able to do that with photons, can you get photons to orbit each other like that. 10:50:40 Somebody told me about getting two photons orbiting each other I'm not sure how they would have done that. And so I can't really comment you know a lot of things like that end up being dependent on very particular materials that they chose and so really 10:50:52 you're looking at an interaction inside of a material that's highly nonlinear it That doesn't mean it's not interesting. It just means that it's not quite the thing that you read in the headline. 10:51:04 It doesn't mean it's not interesting. It just means that it's not quite the thing that you read in the headline. Yeah, it sounds. Yeah, I was thinking about actually like photons and free space, somehow interacting with their each other's fields so that 10:51:16 they orbit at each other which you know some mind blowing thought, Yeah, that would be very interesting but I'm not sure what they can do that I don't know photons interact with photons I thought protons had to interact with a material for me. 10:51:22 Okay, so my understanding was that bosons interact with Fermi arms and then permissions interact with those zones, so that they have this sort of dual relationship between them. 10:51:32 But I could be completely off, and I'm sure some theoretical physicists will go down to the comments and explain to me exactly how protons and electrons interact, we'll have to look into that and do another show about that okay there's also another phenomenon 10:51:45 which is really fascinating, the motion in a central force, where they would have like a pharaoh fluid a pharaoh magnetic fluid in the oil mixed in. And then they would put up magnetic field in the center of, say your experimental oil bath. 10:52:04 And so you've actually got at that point, and attractive force happening with all the WAV dynamics and this would conceptually least seeing very much like an electron orbiting a proton. 10:52:17 Well yeah, that's basically what they were trying to simulate right. So, yeah, take the silica oil you infuse it with, you know, natural magnetic particles, really small particles I'm not really sure what they use, he just said something about Pharaoh 10:52:30 foods, but all feral food is his little tiny particles in a fluid. That's all you need. And then yeah, that means that everything will have a desire to go towards the center. 10:52:41 If you just take like the point of a very thin magnet and put it at the center, everything will want to go in there. It sounded like it had to be fairly small for these guys to do anything with it, but yeah yeah that wander around with chaotic Lee, but 10:52:55 it had similar conservation was right. And so, lots of things like the average radius and the average annual momentum, they all say constant basically embed experiment. 10:53:07 Even though it looked like they were bouncing around at random, if you did statistics on them and and tried to figure out what the averages of different things were everything acted just like they would, you know, quantum mechanical system in a, in a 10:53:20 bounce state system basically in the central potential, so did were they able to replicate the orbital dynamics that it would bring to mind like the discrete orbital levels of hydrogen atom, with an electron going around it were they able to replicate 10:53:32 it that way. 10:53:32 I know they were able to do it with a rotating fluid which is a whole other fascinating thing, but were they all to do with the central force. Yeah, I don't know exactly how they did it. 10:53:41 I do know that I sketched out some stuff here about what it was looking like and trying to figure out, sort of the orbital radius versus rotation and stuff like that looks like the slower you're rotating, the more different energy levels you can achieve, 10:53:55 although you can only achieve one at a time for different rotation rates, you can achieve more than one. And it looks like that's sort of history dependent on how you got there. 10:54:07 So, I didn't see anything that made me think that they did that with the central force. I wonder if they've tried, I mean if you rotate the whole bath uniformly, then you've got your then you're going to have certain types of observations, but if you 10:54:19 have a vortex. Then the spinning is going to be faster closer to the center and slower on the outside, so maybe then you could get the discrete orbitals that look just like a hydrogen atom. 10:54:30 Well I mean it sounds to me like they have a very close analogy I mean they're not going to get them looking just like it because it's in two dimensions, instead of three, well I mean that's Yeah sure, but it looks like the radio functions look very very 10:54:43 close to what actually happens with those energy levels that is, you're getting that boost energy state, you basically have one place that is a piece right you have one. 10:55:10 ring that's a peak for your radius, but you get to the higher energy states you have multiple peaks. 10:55:04 And those multiple peaks aren't different energy levels, the fact that it has multiple peaks, is the higher energy level. Okay, so that's different. So it's not just the average radius. 10:55:15 That's important. I mean, the average radius is important. But what's also important is that at these higher energy levels have multiple peaks in the radio part of the wave function. 10:55:25 So, there are multiple places where the electrons spends a lot of time. I wonder if they also get like spontaneous orbital shifts with their droplets Did you see anything in there about that. 10:55:35 I'm just really intrigued about the idea of creating an analog like a, like a macroscopic analog of an actual hydrogen atom, well I mean it would be it would be interesting. 10:55:43 I didn't see anything about that. 10:55:44 I saw things that made me think that that happened nice, there should be some figure in there that has the radius versus rotation rate figure, five. So in figure five. 10:55:58 If you look at say figure five be. Yeah, or figure five see you see that, you know, you've got these basically different energy levels. So this plot looks like a little wavy thing but the wavy part is on the vertical axis. 10:56:16 All right. Yeah, so that means there are places on this graph where you have more than one value of the dependent variable for the value of the independent variable so if you set your frequency to to whatever's, right, you end up with three different 10:56:33 spots that look like their possibilities on the radius, but you have two things, wherever the line is going forwards, that's a viable solution for if it's going backwards, so that it's going downwards and is downwards to the left, in that case that's 10:56:50 not, that's why the red hot forbidden trajectories that may be because I'm looking at it in black and white. Oh, so maybe more information on this graph and I see is, so those don't actually her. 10:57:04 Those are unstable. So, the particle happened to be on that radius Exactly. And if there were no outside perturbations it would stay there but in the real world, there's always an outside preservation and you never get there quite exactly right, so that 10:57:17 if the particle hits a bad spot. Want to go away from that either by going down to the lower radius or the higher radius. Well that just brings to mind, the thought that okay. 10:57:27 I mean, you do have spontaneous decay of electron in orbit around an atom when they're an excited state, and maybe they're knocked off of those stable regions by the quantum vacuum fluctuations, possibly, yeah what I wanted to say about this is that you'll 10:57:44 notice if you look at this, there do seem to be things that look like transitions and and they look like they're transitions because it looks like they're coming down from a from a higher frequency. 10:57:57 And there's some spot where they're technically viable solutions. 10:58:03 Technically viable solutions where this lower energy state should be achieved, but apparently it's jumped up to the higher state so there's like, where there are no actual observations there it's just, everything is up at the higher state so it looks 10:58:17 like there's something going on here, such that if this thing gets below a certain frequency has a higher, higher, higher and higher probability of jumping up to the higher energy state, oh ok so the jumps up instead of down, maybe I'm reading this because 10:58:31 it's a, This is the radius not the energy state. 10:58:35 This is the, this is what the measured orbital radius as a function of the bats rotation rate that should be higher energy state I expect. Oh, you mean the when the radius gets smaller the energies higher than what you're saying. 10:58:57 I was, I was thinking so if it's at a lower radius it wants to jump up to the next higher one of the camp. And you see that in SEO in a lot of different spots where there's a rate region where there should be at least one overlap, and it just doesn't 10:59:12 have any walkers observations at sort of the lower frequencies of that particular overlap. So I think there is something going on there. 10:59:21 To be honest, if there is something going on there. And that's something somebody should look at is, see and explain exactly how that transition occurs. 10:59:30 And the reason why that would be right word, is because, in, in an atom in the model that we have for the atom that transition occurs because the electronic mitts photon. 10:59:42 So, what would the analogy be there, you'd want to imagine that some kind of wave front would escape. At that point, like maybe the or the waves or, or, it's hard to tell from these static photos but maybe the energy of the waves the pilot waves, somehow 10:59:57 bound, when it's doing and doing a constant circular orbit, and maybe some of the energy that wave front radiates out when it changes orbitals, possibly, I mean it would have to be something like that, I think, yeah, I don't want to think too much. 11:00:12 Good stuff though okay so let's see this move on. There's theoretical developments I guess that have that have that they've been working on. 11:00:24 In recent years, since the 2006 revelation about this experiment so they've, they've been working really hard to understand the precise mechanics, and to expand on them to get a better analogy for quantum behavior right yeah I guess the first thing that 11:00:41 they're looking at is just when can you get these droplets actually occur. Right. 11:00:47 When can you get these Walker's to actually occur. right. So, like you said there was this thing where this guy was looking at water droplets and through water droplets when doing anything like this. 11:00:58 But in the silica you do get something like that and that's probably because these three dimension was numbers aren't satisfied in the, in the case of war. 11:01:09 Well, he was getting he was getting the water to bounce but it is then seemed like it lasted for very long even when they had optimal conditions, right. 11:01:16 So there was certain surface tension limitations and energy and last density problems, I guess there's drag within a fluid and you want to get an optimal elastic fluid that kind of thing going on so they've really gotten into it to try to figure out a 11:01:29 mathematical model of how this works. And they needed a high Reynolds number, for example, about 20. And then they had a couple of other numbers that they put together which, I think, at least one of them was the wrong one was a small bottle number, and 11:01:46 that's been number compares the weight to the surface tension. 11:01:51 And if that number is small meaning either the surface tension is high or the weight, or the density is small, right then you get a spherical droplet if you don't get that spherical droplet, you don't get the Walker. 11:02:04 So you have to have high surface tension that forces you gives you a very spiritual droplet. They've also extended this. 11:02:12 They've also been looking at the mathematics. This is this really fascinates me is the idea of the memory. 11:02:19 The memory of how the mathematics emulates the fact that the waves from previous bounces continue to exist on on the surface of the oil for a long time. 11:02:32 And so you want to be able to account for all that all those waves, going back many many bounces in order to properly emulate the experiment observations that you see it yes so you're walkers need to have some sort of path memory for them to act like 11:02:47 mechanical particles, so the droplet when it bounces it's, it's bouncing off of the sort of local slope of the interface, right. So that's why I can look random is because you know if it's just bouncing around. 11:03:01 And, you know, if it's somewhere near a peak it's very, it could be very easily off just a little bit, and bounce to the left or off to the other side and bounce to the right, because it seems the peak or the or the trough of that wave, right. 11:03:16 So, it hit right at the center, it would go straight up and down if it was a little bit off to the right, it would bounce the left a little bit off to the left, to the right, but then the shape of the wave itself is often interacting with previous waves 11:03:25 right. Well, the, the shape of the wave is going to interfere with other ways so that's as far as I know from reading this. 11:03:38 There's nothing you don't need a nonlinear. This is a linear fluid, which means that the waves will add and subtract, but they won't sort of create new ways the waves don't get two waves a hit each other they basically will pass through each other, just 11:03:54 like on the ocean. Sometimes you'll see that when you go to when you go to the beach, you'll see that there's, you know one major set of waves coming in from out of the ocean and then from some, some rocks or somewhere there'll be another set of waves, 11:04:08 and a smaller set of waves it just seems to travel perpendicular or maybe not quite perpendicular along those waves, but they do add and subtract but their peaks and valleys, yeah yeah so they interfere in that way and that gives you the sort of wave 11:04:23 interference, that gives you the wave interference. like if you had a real wave that was doing the moving this thing, right, is that these different waves do talk to each other in some sort, in some sense, and if the drop went moves fast enough from bounce 11:04:38 the bounce it can catch its last pounds interfering with a bounce it you know three bounces ago is there is there any way to see if quantum mechanical particles have that same property today is there a memory to their wave function, it's, it's just the 11:04:55 OP or is that just a necessity out of the system, basically the way quantum mechanics is set up. There is no damping. There is no damping in the wave function. 11:05:05 And that means that the way quantum mechanics is set up it's automatically high memory, in the sense of these people. Fascinating. Okay, I didn't know that. 11:05:14 So it has the same sort of superposition principle has the same sort of wave interference. 11:05:20 These, these ways they're not interacting in the way that a physicist would say they were interacting. 11:05:26 All the high memory means is that the waves don't damp out, and the energy disperse among the rest of the fluid. 11:05:34 Very, very quickly. I thought what he was talking about here was that when they said hi memory, he meant that they were accounting for, you know, several generations back of way formation. 11:05:44 Well, what high memory means in this case is that before the wave damps out, it exists for a long period of time, and so that means that the droplet can hit several times and still be feeling the effects of the first bounce. 11:05:58 That's right. There's nothing additional in there don't read too much into that high memory, high memory just means low damping. Okay, but it means that the wave stick around for a long time so quantum mechanics does seem to indicate that the wave stick 11:06:09 around for a long time like they do in this fluid hop. Yes, well in quantum mechanics they stick, they stick around forever. Well, what's the deal I mean what is the nature of this wave of the wave and the pilot wave theory, I'm not sure that I understand 11:06:21 this or that we talking about some kind of electromagnetic wave, or is there a different property to it. Okay, so what do you mean you're talking about in Berkeley. 11:06:32 Yes, or. Okay, well they have that analogy here, and that was fairly interesting for a couple of reasons. One of them is because this guy, what do we call him bush bush was the writer of this paper Yeah, one of the things he's saying is that even though 11:06:48 the the broccoli and boom theories have been put together over and over that they have to be sort of separated out, because the Mobley actually has two ways. 11:07:00 The internal oscillations in the pilot wave, which is more like this thing, whereas bone only had one way than one particle that was sort of moving at the probability velocity, the depth average fluid velocity in this case, it seemed to me that the stuff 11:07:18 that they were talking about the stuff at the pilot wave is made up of is not really specified, whatever that stuff is it's just some sort of way. So that's probably one of the things people have as a problem with this is that you don't really have any 11:07:34 idea about what the deeper way wave is in yeah if it's if it's going to guide the particle, it's got to have some kind of way of interacting with it, but what is that what type of interaction is that, yeah and that's one of the places where people start 11:07:48 talking about this being the zero point field, being the electromagnetic field I guess that's all the stochastic electrodynamics right that we're we've promised to talk about in the future future episode. 11:08:00 Not next week. 11:08:01 So that's one way to push things into stochastic electrodynamics is to say, it's the electromagnetic field, that the particle is bouncing around in and causing the ripples in. 11:08:14 Well yeah, in stochastic electrodynamics, you're just interpreting the quantum vacuum fluctuation is the zero point energy field as photons that are real, but they have a very specific spectrum distribution that's Lorenz and varying and their momentum 11:08:28 is transferred to the particles, the electrons and protons and all that, which is why they get around a little bit, that's pretty easy to understand, because you've got, if you got a photon it's a packet of energy that has momentum, and it strikes it 11:08:42 like a little billiard ball almost. And so, then what's getting hit all from all directions, it's going to wiggle around. 11:08:49 But the idea of a particle, having its own pilot wave that gets a little more complicated because now you're not talking about photon energy coming in and impacting the particle. 11:09:00 Now you're talking about some kind of ripple in the space around the particle. That's interacting with the particle itself. And I think that's sort of the issue here is for window interpreted this way then it's got to somehow not be just part of the particle. 11:09:17 Right. It has to be something that the neighboring particle has some sort of access to, because otherwise you don't get interactions, right, and you do get interactions, right. 11:09:29 So, that also would make you think that this would have something to do with the electromagnetic field, because that's how in quantum electrodynamics, you know, to fermion, interact with each other through the medium of Bowser right to electrons, interact 11:09:49 with each other through the medium of a futon. So you think that in a more robust, you probably are boom sort of theory that's what it would be. And maybe that's where stochastic electrodynamics does come in. 11:10:03 Maybe that's where it really will show up. Maybe that's where we really will be useful since I don't really know very much about it, I can't really say very much about. 11:10:14 Part of the problem with this has a analogy is one obviously we just talked about. We don't know what this field is right. In fact, the original the Berkeley a theory, had the particle interacting with its own field, which we just said, and there was 11:10:33 a singularity, at that point, which is always bad, not so bad anymore It was really bad when he invented it puts in people like Fineman wandered around and figure out how to sweep infinity under the rug, the normalization. 11:10:46 Yeah, issue. Also, what's, you don't really know what's going on with this Bing. Right. So, you have a parametric forcing, in this case so you have basically a monochromatic oscillation, in this field, which means everything has the same wavelength, how 11:11:05 Now that actually works with something in the real world where you don't, you don't really know what is the driving field. So you don't know what's driving it. 11:11:14 Right. In our case we have acoustics, driving a wave in the water, right, but in the G probably a thing you don't really have anything but some sort of internal clock or something that's driving your article. 11:11:28 Well if it's the, if it's the zero point fluctuations, then we would say that this in say let's say in the case of electron. If you have this stochastic signal coming in and and striking the particle and giving it energy along a specific spectrum, then 11:11:49 you've got this kind of quality of noise but the noise that's of its vibration has specific properties. So instead of being monochromatic now you've got this whole spectrum, and went and electron gets accelerated by these impacts by or by these momentum 11:12:04 transfers. 11:12:05 Any accelerating electrons is going to create a magnetic field right so you can see where the electrons, creating its own pilot way of that way but it wouldn't be this kind of pilot way we would have a totally different character because it would be many 11:12:18 many different wavelengths, you have to have some idea about what's going on with doing that and one way to do that is use the zero point field for that they use so cast collector dynamics, it's always possible that we've got all that figured out, and 11:12:32 maybe, maybe we do. 11:12:33 Yeah, the trigger frequencies, they apparently know, right. So they've got a good idea that the competent wavelength should be the trigger frequency, no matter what it is that it's bouncing around in or what's making it bounce. 11:12:48 Then they know what the frequency should be, which is fairly interesting. We don't know anything about it, but we know what its frequency is. Well, that makes sense though because the electrons is going to have a specific interaction wavelength right, 11:13:00 that's sort of the issue with bringing things back into quantum mechanics, right, going from this macroscopic analogy to the microscopic reality, there are things that just are not really well described. 11:13:13 Now it looks like you could go to, it looks like you could go to something like stochastic electrodynamics as a way of building this up into something a little more robust, but at least. 11:13:25 Yeah, frankly, It looks to me like if you couples stochastic electrodynamics with pilot wave theory, you should be able to completely demystify all of quantum mechanics because you've got mechanistic causal and conceptual, you know, mechanism happening 11:13:41 for everything. Oh, yeah. I mean, it looks like at least according to what we have in this paper. It looks like you need something like sarcastic electrodynamics on top of the boldly interpretation to make it a complete interpretation. 11:13:58 Right. 11:13:59 And I think that's probably one of the reasons why a lot of people don't like to broken a bone is just because there's so much stuff that's sort of unknowable in there about, you know, what is this thing that the particles interacting with, is it completely 11:14:14 separate entity or is it a part of the part of the world, or what it has at some point be a part of the particle right so, and we see that here, right, you know the the wave, plus the particle, but not the wave plus the droplet is the Walker. 11:14:32 So that doesn't mean that all of the fluid plus the droplet is the Walker, it's just the self generated wave and the droplet makes the Walker, well maybe that's maybe that's the the the problem that we run into with that I run into a lot with people who 11:14:47 who don't like the pilot way of theory is it without adding in something like stochastic electrodynamics it's not really, It doesn't really fully explain the behavior that you're looking for, to emulate reality. 11:15:00 Well that's always been the problem i think is that you have to stipulate these two different entities. 11:15:08 And you can measure it most one of them, but you can't even show that you've got two of them, right, you can measure one thing you can't show that there's a second thing to be measured, and so forth. 11:15:30 Maybe you can you can do that but nobody's got a way to do that if somebody had a way to measure both the wave and the particle, then you wouldn't have an interpretation anyway. Well I have an idea about that, about how to maybe extend this type of modeling. 11:15:34 I remember seeing a great paper where they used a white noise. 11:15:41 To create a field. An acoustical field and then they would put two plates together and they were able to emulate the chasm mirror effect. 11:15:48 So what if you want with an acoustic model where you created that kind of like a, like a stochastic noise background, and then had your artificial test particles, either maybe as, as some kind of a plastics spheres or something like that or maybe they'd 11:16:05 even generate their own way and so I'm not sure, but maybe and then you could create a more comprehensive and accurate model that would work in a macroscopic scale that was supplant. 11:17:35 background, and then had your artificial test particles, either maybe as, as some kind of a plastics sphere is or something like that or maybe they even generate their own way and I'm not sure, but maybe then you could create a more comprehensive and accurate 11:17:51 model that would work in a macroscopic scale that would supplant. This type of hydrodynamic model, I think there's something to that but, I mean, as I understand it, one of the things that's nice about this particular interpretation is that it does get 11:18:06 closer to understand, or at least I guess it's with us to escalate the drug dynamics, but it actually explains the cashmere effect, but regular quantum mechanics doesn't really explain it apparently it's just something that you see, but you have to have 11:18:20 something there something else, added on to make it work. Right. I wonder what you get if you had say the two lightweight metallics fears. Let's say you that you filled them with hydrogen or something so they were, they would float in equilibrium, and 11:18:38 an acoustical chamber, and you charge one of the spheres with a negative charge electrostatic Lee, and another charge and charged another one with say a positive charge, and then you turned on your stochastic noise generator and wonder what kind of interactions 11:18:51 you get under those conditions like could you get orbitals and discrete orbitals and that kind of thing because when it was only specific wavelengths of acoustical noise influenced the movement of the spheres and that kind of thing. 11:19:03 Yeah, that would be interesting to figure out what what you could do with that, yeah might might be quite difficult to figure out the right conditions I think you'd probably have to go back to some of these things like this. 11:19:17 Reynolds number where you need to you need this high Reynolds number right so you need a relatively low velocity of sound, and you need something very spiritual. 11:19:38 And then you need some sort of way to characterize the interaction, and that interaction should be reasonably small, right. So, so that you have in bring like interaction between the balloon or the sphere and the end the acoustic, the acoustic waves Nazis 11:19:51 achievable. It'll be fascinating to see where this goes. Because, you know, the march forward, and we'll we'll see additional models like this come out, maybe even better ones to emulate quantum mechanics, it's kind of exciting to think of that would 11:20:03 be interesting to see if you can get really really strong correlations between one of these experiments and something that's not really well explained, especially in standard quantum mechanics. 11:20:17 I mean, that's another thing we always have to remember is that last correlation right which is that whatever we're talking about what I'm talking about. 11:20:26 All of these interpretations is they all have to also work with in relative relativistic way right they all have to work relativistic Lee, you know, and a lot of cases when we read the quantum metaphysics stuff when we talked about this last time and 11:20:40 talking about this this time. It's very easy to forget that everything has to be okay relativistic Lee, and, and, you know, we've already made some allusion to that by saying stuff about, you know, the route, probably boom interpretation needs to have 11:21:00 its fundamental frequency be the competent wavelength, but to actually do an interpretation of non world specific quantum mechanics, that's viable relativistic Lee, but see here's the thing is that the is the velocity of the waves in the soil drop experiments 11:21:18 experiments are fairly slow very slow. The wave propagation. And now if you're looking at that if those waves is analogues to light for example, then you, it seems to me that you should be able to see that the part of the pilot way if the particle bouncing 11:21:34 on its own wave really couldn't accelerate faster to speed faster than its own way front can propagate right because it won't be able to bounce on the leading edge of the wave that it's propagating from itself. 11:21:49 If the wave has a finite velocity so it should extend to a relativistic regime in that analogy right well with what you're talking about, you might not have to worry too much about that. 11:22:00 It's hard to tell, since you don't know what the particle is and you don't know what the wave is. 11:22:03 It's really hard to tell what you can do, but if you just think about some of the things that happened in quantum mechanics right, if you just think about how a wave packet evolves, the wave packet will leave plenty of traces, as it slowly increases in 11:22:34 sorts of velocity is associated with itself interaction between the Walker and the way I shouldn't call it a walker because it's now quantum mechanical part, but you know some of these interactions will go out exactly at the speed of light, but because 11:22:49 they're only a certain velocities, that will have to be less than the speed of light like the front quality, right. Other velocities can travel faster than light because they're not really caring information right the group philosophy that kind of thing 11:23:06 you'd be able to get all sorts of patterns coming out of all of these different things happening, and I think you'll be perfectly capable of having things self interacting with their own waves, because the waves are extended you know it's not like you're 11:23:21 going to end up having, you know, a wave front that travels along, and you never see it again, you know you have real ripple effect. and that ripple effect, even though it's in three dimensions, is going to allow you to self interact with your way. 11:23:42 Okay, I'm just thinking about how, if the way, if the wave front is moving is moving with a finite velocity. 11:23:51 Then, if the particles is self interacting with that moving way front, then it can't ever get accelerated to a velocity faster than its own way from because it can't get any, you can't get any momentum transfer that's beyond its own its own propagation 11:24:07 velocity right. 11:24:09 Probably something like that. 11:24:10 Like it would you would actually probably the way from one to probably absorb some kind of energy from the particle tried to go faster than its own way from right i mean that's that's likely but yet for a number in quantum electrodynamics liking go faster 11:24:24 than light. 11:24:25 It's, it's allowed to light is allowed to change its velocity and quantum electrodynamics or change it speed, as long as it's for short enough period of time. 11:24:34 I don't have a time in my head I don't have a number in my head that says how often a quantum mechanical particle, and electrons would interact with this field, but I guess it would be at this trigger frequency, which would be. 11:24:50 I've got a number but I've got a number in symbols, okay, but it is a number, but I didn't calculate it, but I'm going to expect to that frequency is fast enough that you have a reasonable chance of having your photon travel at a faster or slower speed 11:25:10 actually hit things that's that's just going to be my guess is that you have a reasonable chance to get that. So apparently that frequency is something in like the 10s of milliseconds, that would mean that you've got plenty of time to violate the speed 11:25:24 of light for your photon between these bumps. 11:25:29 But I don't, but you know that's assuming again that these would be protons spontaneously doing stuff and however they're doing their thing. So I mean I don't, I don't really understand this a classical approach Alex and how it would interact with this 11:25:53 to get into that next leg and a future episode, I'd love to cover that subject. It's on our list, or it's on one of the lists, good since a now since right now I have three. All right, is there anything else that you wanted to talk about what this guy. 11:25:57 Did you want to go for me having to break this up into three episodes. 11:26:02 Well I did have a couple of questions. Okay, go ahead, uh one of my questions is, can pilot wave hydrodynamic replicate quantum entanglement. And that's if that that apparently hasn't been done yet, but I wanted to mention that it hasn't been done yet 11:26:15 because it's kind of an exciting thing and I'd love to see somebody do that. Yeah, I'd like to see how that would actually work I mean, in, in general, I guess what you need to do is you need to find a way to generate two particles simultaneously that 11:26:30 would maybe make kind of interferometer right in my calendar interferometer analogy, however you do that and I'm not really sure how you do it. 11:26:41 But But if you can do that you could use again correlations and you could look at those correlations. Unfortunately, with something like this Just like how long did it take for there to be the aspect experiment decades, was 20 years after Bell and bells 11:26:56 reformulation was like 20 years after boom boom first it or boom first formulated, something like that. So, and boom was another what 20 years after Einstein Rosen and. 11:27:12 So, it took a very long time to be able to do that and. And even after the aspect experimented took another decade for people to actually accept them as being, you know, pretty good, rather than something that could just be random fluctuations. 11:27:26 Yeah, but it occurred to me that maybe if you, if you had, if you could generate two particles. 11:27:33 l and have them interact, like start out at the same point somehow, and have them interact with the same, the same or initial wave front, then maybe that would be analogous to entanglement. 11:27:45 Because they would continue. So I think to have the certain cemetery until something broke that cemetery right, I have thought about that a little bit. 11:27:53 I think that's basically what you have to do is you just have to have them start off at the same spot now the question is is can you get them to have to obey all the same statistics. 11:28:05 I was going to say conservation loss, right, because the way that they generate these entangled particles for those particular experiments, you know what the spin of one will have to be for the other one, because of the conservation laws which means that 11:28:19 whatever is making them spin. If you wanted to make these little droplets spin and measure that spin. 11:28:26 Then what you'd have to do is you'd have to find some way to make them sort of come out of one thing with no nuts, angular momentum right but but break off into two things with angular momentum. 11:28:40 And, again, we'd have to know more about how this guy was able to create spin states in the first place, to figure out if that makes any sense that might be the whole reason why he's trying to figure out how to make the spin states, well there's another 11:28:51 paper that's cited in here by Hosea from 2014 which talks about the spin states so maybe we can look at that and mentioned in the future can probably take a peek at that I'm sure at some point will run out of our initial lists. 11:29:03 Every time we make one of these podcasts, we had three or four more things. 11:29:07 Sure, yeah I should be kicking making a list of that, but I I kind of been falling behind on that maybe as I listened through them, I will. I've got pieces of paper that, which is a really bad way to do things, but especially with me because I generate -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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